Good shoot/Bad shoot???

[DJ E.]

Let's try this and you guys give me your take on it. I understand we're not lawyers, but let's just see where it takes us...anyone game?


Scenario I:


Imagine the upstairs of your home. There is one long hallway with the stairs perpendicular to it directly in the middle, forming a T. Asleep in your room is your fiance and daughter, and in my case, my father would be asleep in the loved ones room, 60y/o, not really in a position to defend himself.

You awake to the sound of your little dog barking from your loved ones room. You grab your pistol and surefire from the nightstand and proceed to the door of your room to check it out. You open the door quickly and quietly and proceed to light up the hallway. You are immediately greeted by an intruder 5 yards away from you who is blinded by the light and you notice that he is armed with what looks like a 5" folding knife. You scream *at him to freeze, but he turns around and runs down the hallway passing up the stairs, heading towards the loved ones room. He reaches the door to the room and reaches out to grab the door knob and begins turning it when you put 2 hollowpoints in his back. He drops to the floor and appears to pose no more threat.

So, good shoot or bad shoot?

What if you light up the hallway and he does NOT appear to be armed?

Scenario II on it's way...


*EDITED b/c my little pic didn't work*

 

[DJ E.]

Scenario II:

You are coming home from work and notice a car in your driveway so you park on the street. You approach the front door and notice that it is jarred open. You double around back, stealth like, and you proceed to go in through the side garage door and open the safe that you have in the garage. You grab the 870 and load it with your choice of shells, putting a couple in your pocket. You proceed to stealth it into the house through the garage door, and you hear voices from upstairs. You make out a couple of male voices and you can hear your fiance crying. You grab a cordless phone and dial 911 explaining your situation, then you drop the phone onto the floor with them still on the line. You creep up the stairs and peek into the master bedroom and make out that your fiance is on her knees, hands tied behind her back. You see one male, approx. 16-17y/o in front of her, facing her with a pistol. You see another male in the back of the room going through your things. Male 2 walks to the front of the room, right past the door you're peeking through and you notice a pistol in his hand. Male 1 says something to the other man, and you hear Male 2 making his way back towards the door as he walks past it towards male 1. You enter the room and proceed to put a shot COM into the back of male 2 who drops and you drop male 1 with a subsequent shot.

Good shoot/bad shoot?

Same situation but no hostage?

 

[XLMiguel]

I'll play. In my house, they're all bought & paid for.

In #1, I neutralized a threat (uninvited intruder, middle of the night) heading for kid's/old folk's room. I orderd him to stop, he didn't so I considered him a threat to life & well being of loved ones. I believed him to be armed. (That's my story & I'm sticking to it.)

In #2, obvious threat to hostage, not about to give away strategic advantage by announcing my presence. would neutralize the threat as opportunity presents itself. 9-1-1 will only hear my side when they get there for the clean-up. If no hostage, I'd retreat or hold my position from cover and wait for the cavalry.

 

[Langenator]

Pretty much the same as above for both situations.

#1: Even if the intruder is unarmed, if the room he's headed into is occupied by someone who can't defend themselves (elderly parent or child), intruder has made himself a threat to health/life of loved one.

#2: With hostage (wife), both BGs go down. They're armed and have a hostage, thus obvious threats to life of same. Only problem, in my house, the 870 is in the same bedroom now occupied by the BGs, leaving the M-14 (semi-auto) or a pistol (Sig, HK, Kahr) in the safe. Take the HK as primary (hi-cap mags on that) and the Kahr in my hip pocket for back-up.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

What lange said.

 

[rayjay]

All bought and paid for in my house. Too bad so sad, sorry BG(s). You enter my house uninvited, you will get carried out feet first. My house, My rules. Between the house alarm system, patroling land sharks(fence around whole house), sons toys laying around causing one brutal obstical course , your odds of making it in the house are slim at best. But if you do make it in the house you're gonna have to deal with my wife(without make-up ) and myself(half naked ) and we have practiced on engaging multiple targets together. I shoot my side and far and she shoots her side and near. Pays to have a plan and practice it

 

[Ryder]

Good shoots, bad technique. I'd say you're lucky to have prevailed.


1).

You scream *at him to freeze, but he turns around and runs

In the time it took you to yell freeze this scenario should have been over. No reason to hesitate other than the instant that it takes for recognition of the person and the threat potential.

2).

You enter the room

This move gives them advance warning of your presence. Never underestimate the element of surprise. Why waste time entering the room when you can see them through the open door?

2A). No hostage - I'd leave them to the cops. I'm not going to shoot anyone for simple trespass.

 

[Jack19]

You are immediately greeted by an intruder 5 yards away from you who is blinded by the light and you notice that he is armed with what looks like a 5" folding knife.

BANG and if necessary BANG BANG BANG.

You scream *at him to freeze,

Telling people to freeze is for police officers. You are under no obligation to take an intruder into custody; in fact, doing so puts you, and maybe others, at significant risk.

 

[The Reaper]

Scenario #1

Dad heard the dog and was about to open the bedroom door when you fired your two shots. They overpenetrated right into dad, he is now dead. Your bad luck you live in CA and the DA is going to put it to you. Your double bad luck that you get a bad jury. You are going to prison for assualt with a deadly weapon attempted murder and manslaughter. You are bankrupt from paying for your defense in the criminal trial so the BG that lived gets nothing after dragging you through civil court.

Your wife divorces you, and your daughter can't understand why you killed grandpa.

Scenario #2

One of the pellets from your 00 load hits your wife in the ear and she is now a vegetable. The jury acquits you in the criminal proceedings, but you have bankrupted yourself paying for your defense. You now live in your car, your wife becomes a ward of the state in a nursing home, and your daughter is taken by CPS and placed in foster care.

Ah what if's you gotta love 'em. Just presenting possible alternatives to the happy ending we all hope will happen.

Have a nice day.

 

[durango]

Reaper's points are valid, but don't answer the question of good shoot or bad shoot. Every shoot has potential bad outcomes but these must be weighed against the potential outcome of inaction.

Scenario 2 is more straightforward to me since the BGs have taken a hostage and have weapons out. Shooting may injure the hostage but inaction means that you are relying on the kindness of the intruders not to hurt anyone. It's a cost/benefit analysis. If I can hit the BG and feel reasonably certain I won't kill the wife I'm taking the shot. If I can't shoot without killing the wife I'll decide between waiting fo an opportunity or sneaking out and calling the police, provided I haven't been seen yet. (not a great option in my opinion).

The first case is also a good shoot IMHO, but will be likely to get you in more trouble with a liberal jury. The perp in this case can always claim that he was looking to steal to feed his destitute family (start violin music here), and when he saw the homeowner aiming a gun at him he was terrified for his life and only tried to run away. Once again, I'm not trusting my family's well being to the kindness of intruders, but the aftermath of this one will potentially be rougher.

 

[10-Ring]

In my mind these are both good shootings. My only reservation was shooting the guys in the back, but they were posing immenent threats.

 

[admar2]

in most states you have no duty to retreat from your home, correct?

I'd say both are good shoots. If there was no hostage involved in the second one, I'd probably retreat and wait for the cavalry.


guy in first scenario would definitely be dead dead dead. and he wouldn't get the luxury of a "freeze" from me. bad guy with knife in my house=dead bad guy.

as far as Reaper's possible outcomes, I'll take my chances with action rather than take my chances on inaction when it comes to protecting my loved ones.

 

[DJ E.]

Good shoots, bad technique. I'd say you're lucky to have prevailed.

In the time it took you to yell freeze this scenario should have been over. No reason to hesitate other than the instant that it takes for recognition of the person and the threat potential.

Well, being that I live in CA, I'd want to have every last excuse as to why I shot him. I could say that I gave him the chance to surrender, but he didn't. Any witnesses could testify easily to hearing me say freeze, so we wouldn't have any trouble of 'getting the story straight'. If he was that close in real life though, I'd probably just shoot him. My daughter is in the room behind me...

This move gives them advance warning of your presence. Never underestimate the element of surprise. Why waste time entering the room when you can see them through the open door?

Well I'm not saying to just mosey on in the room, but take out one BG from the door while proceeding to advance and disable the second BG.


It sucks living in CA where I'm more at prone to be arrested/imrisoned than the guy who meant to do me or my family harm.

 

[G-Raptor]

In scenario two, if there is no hostage, it would not be a good shoot. You have to opportunity to avoid a confrontation - they are not aware of your presence. Even if you have no duty to retreat, you are not being attacked at the moment. Confronting the BGs in a closed room with no other exit forces the situation. I would opt out on this one.

Otherwise, you're good to go. Some lawyer may not agree, but who cares - you defended your life and your family and you're all still above ground. The rest you can deal with.

 

[tetleyb]

California

198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.

****Not much to add to what others here have said. Except your belief California's laws are more restrictive then other states, is unfounded. 198.5 PC gives you an awful lot of authority in your own home. At the sametime (I will sound like a broken record here) I would URGE you to contact a competent criminal defense attorney. There are several in the SF Bay Area which come to mind. Spend the $400.00 you were going to use on your next gun "doo-hickey" or training class. Get the answers from an extremely qualified attorney and build that personal bond with him/her. ****