Wait time before sizing and loading

[Schwing]

I have seen all kinds of advice about how long to wait or even if it is necessary to wait after casting bullets before you size and load them. I am curious what folks here at THR have found works for them.

Ive had neither good reliability nor accuracy without sizing (with the exception of revolver projectiles) so I wish I was among those of you who don't size at all

I have recently started powder coating my bullets so I cast and powder coat immediately after since you have to heat them back up again to do that. What I am curious about is if it really matters if you wait a few days to size them or if I should just go for it and forget the wait. Do any of you notice shrinking etc if you don''t wait?

 

[blarby]

I quench, so mine are at their hardest and widest after 24 hours.

Without quenching, you can have diameter differences up to .0015 over 2 weeks.

Not sure how it works with heat treating and powdercoating.

It will change again once you heat them, and once they cool again.


Really good article on how/why that works by Robert J. Block. Look that up.

 

[KingM]

Once it is room temp it isn't going to shrink anymore. I haven't measured the difference between a hot bullet & a cold one but I have a hard time believing you are going to be able to measure shrink over something less then half a inch. So cast, cool, size, clean, & paint.

 

[blarby]

o measure shrink over something less then half a inch

?

Own any quality micrometers ?

I don't think thats quite accurate.

 

[KingM]

?

Own any quality micrometers ?

I don't think thats quite accurate.

Seen your post after I submitted mine. If you have measured it & make that statement I believe you. Your statement is knowledge over my guess is why I didn't see any point in restating my post. I have been around here a long time & know you give sound advice. One of the best on this forum.

 

[blarby]

Noted !

No offense taken or intended to be given.

Thousandths of an inch matter in cast sometimes.

I'm really interested in this powder coating thing... if we can give 'em good enough advice, maybe he'll spill the beans on his secrets of this witchcraft......

 

[KingM]

If there is that much I agree but wow it is hard to wrap my head around that much. I may have to see it for myself. I could see that much from solidify to room temp but a bullet cast a hour ago compared to it a week from now.

 

[blarby]

Metallurgy is straight up voodoo witchcraft.

You need good micrometers, some serious algebra and trig ( or a wife that has those skills, as the case may be...... ) and thick skin.... because you're gonna get it wrong a LOT before you get it right if you're going at if off of just anecdotes and faith

Thankfully, the majority of this stuff has been worked out for us already !

http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Cast-Bu...05&sr=8-1&keywords=lyman+cast+bullet+handbook

 

[Schwing]

There are a lot of threads out there on powder coating and, like just about everything else, there is a lot of conflicting advice etc. While I have many loads that work great with 45/45/10 lube, I have found powder coating to be superior in many ways. My experience is that it almost completely eliminates leading. It does take more time but, for me, it is just part of the fun.

I first got the idea from a thread that palehorseman started http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=743224

Very little research yielded a ton of information about the various methods of doing this. I keep meaning to go back to that thread and add more of my own findings. I will try and get on that tonight. I suggest this thread as a good basic starting point.


Thanks for the info by the way. I have a couple of 9mms with extremely large diameter barrels (.3585 on one). When i first started casting, I wasted a lot of time sizing to .356.. then .357... then 358... then I finally bought a custom sizing die that is .359 and had success. The last thing I need is shrinking bullets AFTER i size them. :banghead:

 

[KingM]

Metallurgy isn't something I'm knowledged in. Anyhow OP I'm sorry for hijacking your thread. Glad you asked the question tho since this has been interesting.

 

[blarby]

I got tired of the bullets changing diameter.

I was taught to quench.... abandoned it, and then went back to it for that reason.

Cast, quench, wait a day, size.

Other than springback, they stay that way, now.

 

[Walkalong]

I used to quench them, and then load them as I needed them, but I haven't cast any in some time.

 

[KingM]

I cast air cool then load someday. I don't think I size any of my cast. I may try this powder coating tho.I have had a system for about a year that I have yet to use.

 

[GLOOB]

My method to reduce fouling is to shoot my cast pistol bullets primarily out of Glocks! After working out the kinks, I'm still waiting for the day I need to clean a Glock bore for lead.

But I have purchased some powder coat to see if I can't give myself a break from cleaning my semiauto rifle's gas tube. Seems like powder coating threads have blown up all over the net, recently. I'm jumping on the bandwagon.

 

[KingM]

My method to reduce fouling is to shoot my cast pistol bullets primarily out of Glocks! After working out the kinks, I'm still waiting for the day I need to clean a Glock bore for lead.

But I have purchased some powder coat to see if I can't give myself a break from cleaning my semiauto rifle's gas tube. Seems like powder coating threads have blown up all over the net, recently. I'm jumping on the bandwagon.

If nothing else they have the kool factor.

 

[hartcreek]

I powdercoated my first 300 9mm bullets last night. I sized the before since my mold drops them at .358 so I sized to .356 and then powder coated and loaded them as soon as the bullets cooled to the touch.

It works easily I just swirled the bullets like liquid allox and then uses surgical tweezers to sit the bullets upright on the toast plate that came with my oven. Baked for 15 minutes at 400 degrees. If you let them heat for 20 minutes you can melt the bullets in the oven so watch your time.

 

[Garyshome]

When to load em

I load them when I am ready, I have a few sitting around waiting in some empty cases.

 

[Hondo 60]

After casting, I let cool to room temp (usually less than an hr)
I tumble lube, let dry for about 24 hrs.

I've found they're good to go at that point.
Just load 'em up!

If I'd have to size 'em, I'd do it after that 24hrs. Then tumble lube again.
Wait another 24hrs & reload away.

 

[41 Mag]

Like mentioned the "cure" time is usually 24 - 48hrs with most alloy that is quenched. That will however vary depending on the particular alloy, but in general when speaking of clip on wheel weights, that is a decent rule of thumb.

The amount of tin and antimony along with arsonic will also contribute to this. But again COWW's is the general alloy.

I did find that with some of my cast bullets when poured and sized within a few hours, I had issues if loaded for my ACP on that day. They would drop in fine that day, but several days later were hanging up in the chamber due to growing as mentioned by Blarby. Another thing I found was that the Lee 452-300 poured from COWW alloy and GC'ed shoots WAY better air cooled than they do if I quench them. I can get groups of around 1" at 25yds pretty easily air cooled, but quenched I'm lucky to get anything to even group.

With the coated bullets, most I see who are haveing the best of luck, are pouring then coating a day or so later. Most usually size them to just under the required diameter and then coat to bring them up to snuff. A little over isn't going to give you much of an issue as the coating will take to the lands without ruining the lead undernieth. Also most who are coating that I have spoken too are using the coated bullets to be able to use softer than normal alloy instead of the harder stuff that would normally be required.

I haven't personally started up with this just yet. I have too many things already to keep my tables and benches covered. The wife said it's like walking into a day care room, with all the assorted toys here, there, and everywhere.

Most everything I pour is allowed to sit for at least a week or more now before sizing. Not that it makes much difference, but I just usually pour one weekend and then size and load the next, or at some point later on when I need those bullets. Then again I might pour up 20 or more pounds worth of several different bullets on a weekend, and not shoot them for months possibly even longer.

 

[243winxb]

http://www.keytometals.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=ktn&NM=88

Q: Is there anything I can do to make the bullets harder?
A: Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has some antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size your bullets but do not lubricate them. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 5 to 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for a half hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. These are now ready for loading.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/faqs/bullet-casting.php 2% antimony takes about 2 weeks to fully harden. 6% is about 1 day or less. I have never seen a diameter increase after sizing. Bismuth alloys at 50% or more will grow. Same as chamber casting alloy.

 

[243winxb]

The Basis for Compositional Bullet Lead Comparisons

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/july2002/index.htm/peters.htm Variation in Lead Composition Resulting from Manufacture.

Bullet leads analyzed from CCI, Federal, Remington, and Winchester have contained up to 0.42 percent arsenic, 6.8 percent antimony, 2.5 percent tin, 0.2 percent bismuth, 0.22 percent copper, 0.031 percent silver, and 0.011 percent cadmium.

 

[243winxb]

Method of making a hardened bullet

United States Patent 5464487 http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5464487.html

EXAMPLE


38 caliber swaged wrought bullets manufactured by Bull-X, Inc. were heat treated in an open air furnace at about 450° F. for the times set forth below and were then promptly quenched in water at ambient temperature. Following quenching, the Brinell hardnesses of at least 25 of the bullet samples were tested with a Rockwell machine in accordance with ASTM Standard E10-84 using a 100 kg load and an M scale ball of 6.35 mm diameter. The duration of the heating and the Brinell hardness readings were as follows:

______________________________________
Heating Time Brinell Hardness (min.) (range)
______________________________________

5 19.6-21.3
10 25.5-28
20 24.3-25.5
30 28-29

______________________________________




After 8 days, 1 1/2 months and 2 months, hardness tests were again performed on these samples and these tests revealed that the hardness was essentially unchanged.

At least 25 of the samples which were heated for 5 and/or 10 minutes and then quenched as described above also were sectioned, ground, polished and hardness tested both at the surface and the core. These tests revealed that the hardness was essentially uniform throughout.

The samples which had been hardened as described were also analyzed for metal content and had the following metal content:

______________________________________
metal wt. %
______________________________________

Copper 0.038
Arsenic 0.16
Antimony
3.0
Tin 0.25
Zinc 0.0001
Cadmium 0.0001
Nickel <.0001
Bismuth 0.018
Silver 0.0038
Tellurium
0.0015
Sulfur 0.0005
Iron <.0001
Lead Balance

______________________________________




It can be seen from the above example that the hardened swaged wrought bullets of the present invention are capable of use in their unjacketed form with ammunition loads of substantially higher muzzle velocities exceeding 900 fps, and in loads having the power factor and bullet weights previously discussed without unacceptable leading. Thus, the cost of jacketing is avoided as well as cost of inclusion of tin or increased levels of antimony.

It will be understood that the preferred embodiment of the present invention which has been described is merely illustrative of the principles of the present invention. Numerous modifications may be made by those skilled in the art without departing from the true spirit and scope of the invention.

 

[243winxb]

Casting Bullets- using scrap-wheel weights-Linotype.

With air cooled bullets, i check diameter as soon as possible. If undersize as bullets drop from the mould, i add linotype. The antimony makes for a larger bullet diameter. Lube and sizing can be done now or anytime later. Alloys with high percentage of tin, will have a change in BHN, becoming softer over time. But not with Lyman heat treating. See above links. I have never tested for hardness, (BHN), other than using my thumb nail. Testing oven heat treating and droping from the mould into water just dont produce the accuracy i expect. Your result may be different as different alloys produce different results. Just how i see it. IMO.

[/URL][/IMG] Doing your own testing is the only way to know.

 

[hartcreek]

It is so easy to quench them as you cast them and then while the bullets are still damp run them through the sizer if you use Lee Liquid alox. After water dies then you tumble lube them.