Quantcast

Walker fouling binding--your thoughts

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by LaneP, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. LaneP

    LaneP Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    So far I've tried Break Free CLP, Bore Butter, Ballistol and this week, white lithium grease with a drop of olive oil at the cylinder/arbor junction.

    So far nothing allows me to one-hand cock all six shots, though lithium grease/olive oil got me up to 5 before the 6th shot becomes a bear to rotate (have to use two hands to crank the cylinder into lock up).

    This seems most pronounced using the Lee 200 grain RN, cast from pure lead. Today I lubed them with SPG and didn't have to take the gun apart between cylinders but by the 5th and 6th shot of each cylinder it just seizes. Powder charge is 45 grains Goex 3F.

    Alongside my Walker I shot my Uberti 3rd model Dragoon with .45 Colt Kirst conversion cylinder. These were 35 grains Goex 2F under a Lee 255 grain FP, loaded as dropped from the mold and lubed with SPG. I cranked off 18 shots and the 18th shot turned just as smoothly as the first one. For anyone interested these clocked at 778 fps from my Dragoon's 7.5" barrel.

    -LGtYC3IVzC3EMaNYXD8I4UGM7J2ELUEURCSWiCIXodbm71vdPXdoiRBTyQStR02YQj_9BpqoNZjxbtoXg=w1200-h800-no.jpg

    This Walker gaps at about .007" when cylinder is held to the rear, so I know it's not too tight (I know some will say .007" is way too big :) ) I have the arbor set to bottom out in the barrel with a stainless washer and set screw drilled and tapped into the end of the arbor.

    Maybe it's just "the way it is" with Walker repro's using this powder/bullet/charge combo?

    On the upside, this pistol is impressively accurate, and easily as capable of grouping bullets into a ragged hole as any of my smokeless pistols are.

    Do any Walker aficionados shoot conicals and have unlocked the secret to one-hand thumbing 6 shots? Thanks :)
     
  2. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    7,090
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    You could try a cleaner powder or reduce the loads.
    American Pioneer 3F, Black MZ or 777 at a reduced loading, or another black powder that produces less fouling such as Swiss.

    Any possibility of polishing the arbor so that more lube can be applied, or so that metal to metal contact and potential binding will be lessened?

    One of the best greases that I've ever heard about are ones that contains molybdenum.
    There may be synthetic greases that contains moly or even lithium based grease with moly.
    They can contain different percentages of moly.

    Another idea might be to use anti-seize on the arbor.
    These ideas are just food for thought.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  3. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,653
    What's the set screw for? And, 1 washer probably isn't enough to take up the room between the arbor and the end of the arbor hole. Does the cylinder bind when you drive the wedge in till it stops?
    I know some think a bbl/cyl clearance of .007" is OK but that's a BIG leak to me. I set my customers at .0025" - .003". My personal .45 C cartridge Dragoons have a .0015" - .002" clearance ( smokless only).

    I think your arbor is still not bottoming out and a set screw isn't a good fix for that problem. I use a single S.S. spacer to correct the arbor issue and then dress the arbor to reach my .0025" - .003" clearance. The smaller bbl/cyl clearance will keep your revolver much cleaner overall and be more efficient! You should be able to shoot all day with no binding. Mobile1 grease is great for the arbor.

    Mike
     
    robhof likes this.
  4. TTv2

    TTv2 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages:
    1,692
    Not a Walker expert or owner, but in general the open top Colt repros are known to be problematic with caps getting stuck in the action, are you sure it's not cap fragments causing the issue?

    If not cap fragments, try a magnum cap if they will fit. The Walkers hold a considerably larger powder charge compared to other percussion revolvers, there's a higher chance not all the powder is being burned by a standard cap. The Italian revolvers can have funky nipples and the only magnum cap I know of is the CCI #11, so if that cap doesn't fit the stock Walker nipples I would look at getting aftermarket nipples.

    Do try different powders, Swiss is widely regarded as one of the more premium ones available. I'm not into paying hazmat fees for powder and the local stores near me only sell Pyrodex and Triple 7 for pistol powders. I find Triple 7 to be very clean, but if you choose to use it in the Walker the issue with T7 is you'd be stuck using a smaller charge due to the higher energy it produces.

    In my 1858s, I occasionally use 35 grains of T7, even tho recommendation is 25 grains max- I like to live dangerously. I don't do it all the time tho, usually whatever my CVA field flask throws in the spout (23 grains I think??) is what I use for T7. With Pyrodex I do two throws, so something between 40-45 grains.

    In fact, I'm heading to the range later today to shoot my percussion revolvers to celebrate my B-day.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
    Gordon likes this.
  5. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,653
    You don't have to use smaller charges with Trip 7, it's only if you want to replicate the blackpowder velocity. I always shot full trip7 charges when I shot cap guns.

    Mike
     
    Gordon and TTv2 like this.
  6. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2019
    Messages:
    869
    Use non organic lube on arbor. Lithium works for me.
    Definitely shim the arbor length if needed.
     
  7. LaneP

    LaneP Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Excellent ideas. I had thought of trying Swiss, if I can locate some. Also next week I'll be trying a lubed felt over powder wad...some posts seem to suggest that helps. After the last cylinder and as I was taking it apart it seemed almost as if most of the binding was at the rear of cylinder, not the front. In addition to the lubed wads I'm going to completely degrease the arbor and use straight olive oil front to back.


    The screw only holds the washer in place, and was locked using high strength Loctite 638 retaining compound. I then filed the screw head in a rounded pattern that resembles the end of the arbor hole inside the barrel. The washer is a rather thick split washer. I determined the overall thickness needed by using the screw by itself (I know I called it a "set screw" but it's really a flat head, 10-32 stainless steel fastener) and backing it out progressively until I could no longer mate the barrel to the frame, then used that as a reference for total length. So after using this thick washer, the fastener and locking it in place, it actually does measure out to be right at the bottom of the arbor hole. To seat the wedge now I have to tap the barrel in place with a mallet and with the wedge spring tip "just" on the outside of the barrel, it gaps at .007"

    So after reading your post, I took the photo, then tapped the wedge in as far as it would go. At that point I couldn't get a .004" feeler gauge in the gap (my set's thinnest leaf is unfortunately .004"). It still cocks and rotates freely at that wedge setting. Perhaps I can try that setting next week as well. Pic of my arbor setup:

    pz7bjdxoM3PJQLY8a1vGKzaZWtg-RmFop78_0Rkq0RpJ8YHVxDiiw0ao81Y1uJ0cFQcajglp_n3HWjAQUg=w1190-h893-no.jpg

    No, not cap fragments. I know I should try some substitutes but for now I'm hung up on this notion of only using black powder. Back in the late 80's me and a friend of mine were using Pyrodex P. I had a Lyman copy of the Remington New Model Army and he was using a Dixie imported Rogers & Spencer repro.

    After a cylinder full using the same measure I use for black, my revolver stopped locking up and the cylinder just free spun. I looked closer and the barrel/cylinder gap was an 1/8"! The load I was using had actually stretched the frame forward. We looked at his R&S and the portion of the barrel that protrudes into the frame just ahead of the cylinder had rather obvious crack in it.

    It's also possible the alloy we were using for our cast round balls had too much tin (I have long since never used anything but pure lead for anything to do with black powder) but the combination of the two destroyed the guns we were shooting that day, and from that day forward I've only used pure lead alloy and black powder. I know I could use pure lead and reduce my replica powder charge weight but it's just an authenticity thing I guess :)

    Happy birthday!
     
    arcticap likes this.
  8. LaneP

    LaneP Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Thank you. I can't wait to get out next week for another test. I did use lithium on both my 3rd model Dragoon (.45 Colt conversion) and the Walker. The Dragoon went shot after shot as smooth as silk (Lee 255 grain FP with SPG, 35 grains 2F Goex using drop tube). The Walker presents fouling challenges I just don't experience with other C&B's.
     
  9. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,653
    The fact that the clearance went from .007" to less than .004" means the arbor is still too short. The arbor length is what determines the bbl /cyl clearance and it needs to be under tension. Whatever method you use will work (as long as it is solid), I just find it easier to anchor a solid slug in the arbor hole (a few thousandths too thick) and then I can dress the arbor down to my target clearance. These revolvers can be setup very precisely.

    Try it with the wedge in as far as you can and you should see a big difference in the cleanliness of the gun overall (it's mostly all going out the barrel and much less out the B/cyl clearance)

    I use Mobile1 grease mainly because of the racing community (SASS). They've used it for years and it works very well, has a huge temperature range, won't turn rancid, easy to find, stays where you put it. I pack the frames with it so you can clean the action annually without corrosion.

    Mike

    Forgot, you need to do the same thing to your Dragoon and your velocity should see some increase.
     
  10. LaneP

    LaneP Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Good to know. I can extend that out a few thousands without too much issue (using a thinner base washer) and retest. Great info all around. Thanks Mike.
     
    45 Dragoon likes this.
  11. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,653
    Thicker washer.


    Mike
     
  12. LaneP

    LaneP Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Doing more research, I found this quote from a post made by a gentleman quite a few years ago (2006). In this paragraph, he sounds exactly like me, only I'm having a heck of a time trying to interpret what he is trying to say is the solution. It seems as if he recut the arbor in some way that decreased the tendency of gas to blow back into that area, but I'm not completely certain what his "fix" would look like. Does anyone know what "bring the flame cut notch out to either side of the arbor" would do to reduce binding or how it would be done?

     
  13. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2019
    Messages:
    869
    Seems I read about making a spiral cut so that when the cylinder turns the spiral carries fouling out to the front thus keeping the fouling from building up.

    I'm doing a little experiment. I've had good luck with lithium but it blows out pretty easy so reapplying is a must. I just applied Permatex 81343 anti-seize to my bullet mold. It's 1600 degree stuff but thin and super smooth. I figured what the heck. At that temp rating it's bound to make a good base pin lube that won't have to be reapplied near as often. I haven't had a chance to try it under fire yet but I put it on an 1851 and turned the cylinder and removed and replaced the cylinder till I was sick of looking at it. The anti-seize didn't oooz out. Didn't thin out causing bare spots. Stayed smooth as silk. I think it will have good staying power under fire.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  14. DocRock

    DocRock Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2019
    Messages:
    991
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    Not being able to get through a single cylinder is extraordinary. Your cylinder gap is too large at .007, but that still doesn't explain binding after five shots and, while Goex is not my favorite, it too doesn't explain such rapid fouling of the arbor. You have other BP cap and ball pistols, so it seems unlikely that "you're doing it wrong". Sounds like short arbor pin, but still, to not be able to get through a single cylinder seems odd.
     
  15. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2019
    Messages:
    869
    I too started with a Rogers and Spencer
    My friend had the 1858 Rem.. his always froze up after each load. Mine didn't. No stretching or cracks however. Both using regular black powder and crisco to seal. Turned out he was using enough powder that the ball was right at flush with cylinder. I was using 22gns. Finally convinced him to clean and lube and use the 22gn powder load. Now it didn't completely solve his issue but it sure made it easier to deal with. One contribution was being able to get more volume of crisco ahead of the ball. Was a bit messy but you knew there was lube being blasted at the base pin. Later we started using mixture of wax and veg oil melted together to make a much thicker lube and though he had occasional issues as long as he pulled the pin out and put in back between 1 or 2 loads the combination of less powder and the thicker lube solved his problem. As for my R&S, just lubing the pin once it felt it was getting snug was all it needed. Go figure.
    I shoot a pair of 1858 Rem target models and use just a dab of lithium and never have binding issues. Experimenting with permatex 81343, 1600 degree anti-seize compound. It works great to keep bullet molds moving easy at 700-800 degrees and shows no burn off staying slick and smooth. Initial tests of cylinder turn and cylinder removal and replacement show no signs of oozing creating bare spots and remains well coated , smooth as silk. Will shoot with it as soon as possible but feel it will work better than the lithium due to its heat capabilities and cohesiveness.
     
  16. Ironhand54

    Ironhand54 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    363
    Location:
    Central Michigan
    I have used plumbers silicon with good results It does not blow out and I rarely have a problem with fouling on the arbor.

    IronHand
     
  17. LaneP

    LaneP Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    I would be interested to hear how that works out for you. I plan to try several different things next range trip, including olive oil (on the entire arbor, not just the arbor/cylinder junction), synthetic automotive grease, and possibly molybdenum (made by Lyman for molds and bullets) aerosol lube. I also want to remember to lube the ratchet teeth with a thin film too. As well as all that I'm going to use lubed felt over-powder wads. I doubt that will do anything for the binding issue but it's part of my "throw the kitchen sink at it" strategy. If any combination works then I can go from there.

    In all the time I've shot percussion revolvers this has been the only one that I haven't been able to single hand cock and fire six shots. I use the exact same charge weight and powder in a 3rd model Dragoon and it doesn't have this issue...BUT...I have only used round balls in the Dragoon. The problem seems exacerbated in the Walker by using the Lee .450", 200 grain round nose. Perhaps the added weight and length of the bullet increases the amount of gasses that are deposited at the cyl/arbor junction as the bullet is exiting the chamber mouth. The last time I had my Uberti 3rd model Dragoon out with 45 grains 3F Goex and .457" RB's it easily went 24 shots with no cylinder binding. But I did use lubed felt over-powder wads.

    I may go ahead and order some Permatex just for grins.

    That's good to know, thank you.
     
  18. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2019
    Messages:
    869
    Got it at autozone.

    The heavier bullets probably causes more back pressure at the cone putting more hot gases at the cylinder face. I typically shoot 22gns with ball and 18gns with heavier conical in my 1858s. Seems to produce identical recoil.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  19. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2019
    Messages:
    869
    The permatex non hardening gasket compound was recommended for the cutter and guides on molds. It wasn't available so I opted for the high temp anti-seize mainly because it would not harden. After subjecting it to casting it only smoked a tad. Figured considering it stuck well and stayed very slick it would be worth a try. Too dry here right now. My range doesn't allow bp when it's real dry for fire concerns. May get some rain next week. If enough I put it to the test.
    I had read somewhere that organic base lube was not the best for arbor because it gets cooked and either thins out too much or gets gummy.
     
  20. LaneP

    LaneP Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Here are pics of both my Walker arbor (top) and 3rd Dragoon arbor (bottom). The enlarged ring that is machined into the arbor is set back from the cylinder face slightly on the Walker. On the Dragoon it is just ever so slightly forward of the cylinder face. Both cylinders are firmly against the recoil shield in these pics:

    rIlXntZ_GMQhedTZavrD0gQ1F5U9sbkK4-DSF2Y4u20QAcDs67YU80yKbg-NlobXe4CXFMFv4kDxGwA6aA=w1190-h893-no.jpg

    8MNDhjp12QMtHiKSs8g_5c3vtP5GH4isc45QCP-B8oT3XgHLJDBsEtuin6kRQO0Psv5-ar9DkBAibpJ8ZA=w1190-h893-no.jpg

    It's probably more obvious to the eye than my photos show. The gas cutting on the Walker is noticeably greater, despite having fewer rounds fired. Both revolvers use the same charge of 45 grains 3F Goex. The difference is the Walker has been shot with conicals primarily and all of the rounds fired in the Dragoon have been .457" round balls. The Dragoon can easily go multiple cylinders without fouling up to extreme tightness.

    The relationship of the arbor "ring" (not sure if that's the technical term for it) to the cylinder face is really the only visible difference between these two revolvers. I can't help but wonder if that is enabling the Walker to more efficiently channel fouling into the recess between cylinder and arbor.
     
  21. LaneP

    LaneP Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    570
    Bummer on the range fire concerns. I don't have that concern here (northeast US) but I do have to do all my BP shooting before the long, brutal winter sets in. After that there is only a 50 foot indoor range and only smokeless handguns are allowed. Hopefully that rain will arrive soon :)
     
  22. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,653
    Ok, let me see, bigger clearance - bigger flame . . .

    Not sure if I can help here . . .

    Good luck with your endeavors,
    Mike
     
    woodnbow likes this.
  23. denster

    denster Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2006
    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    NW Ohio
    Just a word on the arbor ring. Colt put it there on originals just for the purpose of redirecting the fouling from being blown between the arbor and cylinder. As Colt put it the angle of incidence being equal to the angle of reflection having the fouling strike in that groove managed to redirect it from going between cylinder and arbor.
    On another point 45 Dragoon is absolutely correct that a .002 B/C gap will lessen the problem exponentially.
     
    45 Dragoon and DocRock like this.
  24. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,653
    Thanks Denster

    Mike
     
  25. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2019
    Messages:
    869
    Less gap the better for sure but if that luxury isn't there little less powder equal little less blow back.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice