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Walker fouling binding--your thoughts

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by LaneP, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    Agreed (sorta) but when you know what the problem is but keep looking for other fixes, there's no reason to " play along ". That doesn't get the problem fixed. No amount of the right lube will fix a short arbor. The OP seems to understand the problem and his attempt fell short of the goal so, now that he pretty much knows what the outcome needs to be, it seems best to fix the arbor rather than trying to remedy a problem that probably won't exist once the real problem is fixed. Let's face it, it's an easy fix and all open tops need it if you want it to be the same gun each time you shoot it.
    Besides, if you have a Canon -why not shoot it like it's a Canon?!!

    Mike
     
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  2. Catman42

    Catman42 Member

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    i polished every part that touches another part to look like chrome. takes a wile but it can be done. my walker uberti 1848 come apart and goes back together as smooth a a hot knife through butter. it is super accurate and i have a conversion cylinder on it. i shoot roundballs in front of a 60 thousand thick wad in a 45 long colt case. rolled crimped over the end of the roundball. accurate and very relible.
     
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  3. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

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    Just put 12 through an 1851 44 lubed inside and arbor with the 81343 permatex. Zero binding. Compound still in place on arbor. No thinning no gum up. Stayed smooth as silk.
     
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  4. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    This happens depending on the powder charge and / or if it's a Pietta (of late). Pietta fixed the too short arbor a good while ago and the barrel/cyl clearance is typically. 004" - .006" (arbor is too long now but a simple fix!) Depending on the actual fit of the arbor and arbor hole, a short arbor condition allows the wedge to work loose, even "squirt" out like a watermelon seed! The design (and instructions) call for the wedge to be "driven in" (not pushed in or tapped in "just to here"). And, no, the wedge screw isn't a " wedge seating depth device ". It is (supposed to be) a "keep from losing the wedge device". This isn't directed at skeeter, it's just gen.info. for those that didn't know about the "arbor " situation of our favorite S.A. revolvers. Basically, if you don't have a "1st gen" or a "2009ish to current" Pietta, you have a short arbor in your open top Colt pattern revolver. No matter the make.

    What's funny to me is, the two suppliers we have (Pietta and Uberti) make a nice product but both would be almost perfect if they would adopt the "others" difference!! For instance, Uberti has the finest action parts ever put in a cap and ball revolver, but refuses to fix the arbor problem!! Pietta fixed the arbor problem but has 1970s style action parts!! HELLO !!! lol

    Mike
     
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  5. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

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    Yep the newer ones are better situated. My walker is an older ASM and the arbor length needed to be increased about .040 to get the frames to meet instead of over lap. My new Uberti Dragoon was set at frame contact so was made correct. My newer Pietta colts are set correct too.
     
  6. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    Mike, regarding the Uberti short arbor (a problem I've noted for a few months now) I just recently purchased a Uberti Colt 1862 Conversion revolver that is a new production. It's chambered in .380ACP. You may have seen pictures of it, or even seen or possibly handled one.

    When I disassembled mine for cleaning, I discovered something I've never seen before; the end of the arbor has a rebate segment, or "step" milled in it, and a small coil spring there arranged so that it pushes the barrel forward against the arbor when assembled. I had to hold the barrel down to replace the barrel and reinsert the wedge, although this is not difficult.

    I'm just wondering if you've seen or heard of this, and what comments you might have about this?
     
  7. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    Skeeter,
    If you drop a shim in the arbor hole in that Dragoon, you'll be able to assemble it. Or, drive the wedge in and lock up the cyl. (It has a short arbor). Haven't seen one yet that was correct . . . not one. I've had to correct every open top revolver I've tuned except for 2. They were an 1863 prod.Army and an "S" barrel fact.conversion.

    Mike
     
  8. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

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    This one is correct. I've tapped the wedge in as far as it will go without causing damage and it doesn't lock the cylinder. Cylinder travel is very slight, doesn't even make a contact clicking noise. Barely see any light through gap. Plus when I put the barrel on off set to miss the guide pins the frames meet without any over lap.
     
  9. BCRider

    BCRider Member

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    I don't have Walkers or Dragoons. But I do have three open top .44's. And as Mike says they ALL needed fitting. And yeah, that's solid gold info on the wedge not supposed to be a gap setting adjustment. The gap is supposed to be set by the arbor bottoming in the barrel hole and the wedge is to LOCK that sucker in place.

    If the olive oil does not work for you try Canola cooking oil. I'm having superb luck with it freeing the fouling and holding it in suspension as a black oil. I use my open tops for SASS events so the guns need to stay smooth for the whole day of 6 stages minimum. Canola is doing that for me and does not have any other issues.

    Do not leave the olive, Canola or other vegetable or nut based oils on the guns for long term though. Each and every one of them WILL gum up and turn to a varnish like consistency given enough time, exposure to air and sun and warmth. But we're talking weeks here, not days. The cooking oils work fine for a weekend or even if you know you'll be shooting within up to around a week. Longer than that though and it can start to get a bit gummy and sticky.
     
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  10. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    Tommygunn, I think I read that somewhere, . . . Anyway, it sounds like a feeble attempt (bandaid) to the problem they are too stubborn to admit to (of course, this could be construed as an admission!). The problem is, it's a spring, springs give (otherwise it'd be a spacer!). Spacers have to be fitted, springs don't. Springs are cheaper than a fitted spacer.
    The fit of the barrel assy to the frame assy has to be solid to allow the harmonics of the shot fired to travel across the revolver uninterrupted. A space or a spring that gives is just an interruption and allows the assys to vibrate against each other which eventually (depending on the loads fired and how ill the fitting) will damage parts as well as a continually changing revolver. By the way, a "crush" fit or "interference" fit like Uberti uses won't last. It will eventually "clearance" itself. The only true way to test for a short arbor is to drop a thin shim/washer in the arbor hole and assemble the revolver. Proof that there is "room" (and more) for the shim.

    Mike
     
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  11. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    Skeeter, I hear (read ) what you're saying (you're not hitting it hard enough!). Pettifogger's "test" for checking a short arbor doesn't work (hasn't for quite a while). As I posted above, the only way to truly test for it is to drop a shim in and see if you assemble the revolver (Whether the cylinder will lock depends on other factors such as slop, wedge slot placement . . . not a true test but is common in most). The barrels won't install unless correctly oriented so the "slide on and swing down to meet the frame" method is old and not a good test for a short arbor.
    Like I said, not one in 5 years has come through the shop that didn't need correcting. I make an individual spacer for each open top that I tune. (Late model Pietta's don't need a spacer yet, I dress the arbor down (shorten it) to get my clearance so they get "corrected" too.

    Mike
     
  12. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

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    Just today tested using 81343 permatex anti seize. It work really good. Didnt blow out. No gumming up. Stayed slick as silk. It's 1600 degree protected and can stay on indefinitely. Really smoothes up the internals too.
     
  13. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

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    I guess. Has worked on everything I have so far.
     
  14. denster

    denster Member

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    Once again Mike is correct. If you have a Uberti you have a short arbor. The slightly larger diameter they use on the arbor to get an interference fit so it appears that everything fits correctly is only a band aid and a poor one at that. It will in time wallow out and things will get sloppy. While it is doing so you still do not have a correct fit where the gun acts a one solid unit when fired.
     
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  15. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

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    Yep, thats why I took care of that first.
     
  16. Qweevox

    Qweevox Member

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    Good post.

    Yeah the wedge and arbor length can be a problem. It can stretch over time. Especially if you're using heavier loads. One way to check it is a simple test the arbor length, were you dismantle the gun turn the cylinder off center and see if the bottom frame lines up good, or if it is too short which is often the case.

    I have two Uberti Walkers. One the arbor was perfect, the other the arbor was too short. Both guns were bought at the same time from the same retailer(I was going through a Josey Wales phase). You can fix the problem yourself, or send it to someone like Goon Gun Works, they do a good job tuning these guns. I had a great PDF describing the tuning process, if I can find it I'll post it here. It's not rocket surgery, but you'll need access to some good files, and a drill press.
     
  17. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    Qweevox, the "thread" is even better. The "simple" test you were trying to describe doesn't work on contemporary Uberti's (is there an echo in here ?!!!). Thanks for the mention though!! Both of your Walkers have short arbors (look 6 posts up ^^) whether you think so or not. This is how "MIS information" keeps getting passed on . . .

    >>>>>>>>>>> - If everyone "tested" their revolvers with a bad test, they'd all pass!!-- <<<≤<<<<<<<<


    Pettifogger's posts (the PDF you're looking for) are very educational but there is a better test and other ways of correcting the problem that all Uberti open tops still have.

    ≥>>>> The only test you need (with a valid conclusion) is to drop a washer in the arbor hole and assemble the weapon. The fact that you can is all the proof one needs. - <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< That's really all you need to do to "test" your Uberti!!!

    I wonder how many more times I'll have to post this?

    >>>>>>>>> IF YOU HAVE AN UBERTI OPEN TOP REVOLVER, YOUR ARBOR IS TOO SHORT AND DOESN'T BOTTOM OUT IN THE ARBOR HOLE <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< (unless you bought it used and has been previously corrected).

    Mike
     
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  18. Jackrabbit1957

    Jackrabbit1957 Member

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    Amen Mr. Mike!! I have seen so much misinformation passed along in my own trade that's taken as gospel until you prove it as BS. Just a quick question, do you think bedding the arbor with JB Weld will do the trick or will it pound out?
     
  19. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    Thanks Jackrabbit and good question!! I'm in the process of updating my website which will cover this as well. I've used JB since I started but will be phasing it out very soon. I'll be using a locking ring to hold the spacer in place.
    JB does a fine job but with shim stacks, I found that it could compress which would allow the barrel /cyl to close up (mainly in Dragoons and Walkers shooting max loads). A .003" clearance at the B/C doesn't need much compression at the end of the arbor to close up completely. Of course the barrel lug/frame is fulcrum point so when you think about it, it makes sense that any change at the arbor end is magnified at the B/C clearance.

    For that reason, I went to a single S.S. spacer and haven't had any problem. But even now, it bugs me to keep it in place with JB. At this point, the spacer is in contact with the barrel material at the bottom of the arbor hole so the JB doesn't do anything but hold it in place.

    The answer, to me anyway, is a mechanical keeper that won't ever be affected by lubes or cleaners. So, a locking ring seems to be an excellent answer. I put a groove in the arbor hole and the lock ring expands into it and holds the spacer in place. There are a few out with this setup now and it seems to be the best answer.

    Mike
     
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  20. Jackrabbit1957

    Jackrabbit1957 Member

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    Thanks Mike, looks like I will be rethinking the setup on my Walker.
     
  21. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

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    Well Jackrabbit, hopefully this doesn't discourage you. A single spacer and JB have worked great for years, I'm just always trying to get to the "ultimate" fix. One hint is to start a couple of holes in the side of the arbor hole right at the junction of the bottom and where the obvious end of the drill bit starts angling in to the point. Access through the the wedge slot in the barrel makes that easy. You just need to "start" a hole on either side and the JB will be anchored so that even if it "lifted", it would hold the spacer in place. (Its a secret, dont tell anybody!!).

    Hope that helps ya.

    Mike
     
  22. frydaddy96

    frydaddy96 Member

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    Thanks for the continuing education Mike, I've been following your posts for years and have greatly improved my knowledge of the inner workings and mysteries of why different things were happening. One thing I haven't seen talked about much or in-depth is the Barrel lug/frame interface when setting B/C clearance.
    This spring I bought an early 80's 2nd Dragoon that still had cosmoline in places. The initial disassembly, I had to use a mallet against the front of the cylinder to get the frame seperated from the barrel, the arbor was that wedged into the barrel. After I finally got the shims to get the arbor to bottom at the same time as the Frame/BL, there was better than a 0.024 B/C clearance. I worked the Frame/BL interface with a file/ abrasive cloth along with reducing shim thickness until I got the B/C cleance down to 0.0025ish. Did my best to remove material from both the frame and barrel lug in the same amounts. I will add that when I first removed the pistol from the box, it appeared to have a bent to it instead of being straight across the top of the cylinder/barrel. Several times while checking shims, wedge fit, there was a visible and measurable angle between the cylinder and forcing cone.
     
  23. LaneP

    LaneP Member

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    Quick update here. I was able to get to the range this morning and had complete success getting through the first cylinder with no fouling binding at all. It wasn't until the last shot of the next cylinder that drag began to set in, which is much more the norm for me when shooting open top Colt designs.

    This is my first day off since last Friday so I've had no time to perform any more arbor adjustments. All I did for today's trip was tap the wedge in a little more to close up the gap (less than .004" but still free-turning), used an Ox Yoke Wonder Wad under every bullet, and applied Outers gun grease to the arbor and cylinder ratchet teeth.

    18 shots, first 12 were 45 grains Goex 3F, Lee 200 grain RN lubed with SPG over a Wonder Wad. Last cylinder was the same charge and wad but a .454 RB instead of the conical.

    x5ngHO19X88CF_82MgspfaTPflXjDkUI5wIclzuYyDFhhJulNHMDQCIJ8B_L83KZK19q6ZtOUwbVuOvlXg=w1200-h789-no.jpg

    I think the advice to close up the b/c gap is the best there is and no doubt contributes greatly to reducing the out-blast of gas. My hope was the grease would also help delay the accumulation of what gas does get blown out. All in all it made a huge difference. Six shots with the last shot turning just as smoothly as the first.

    Also ran 32 rounds of .45 Colt loaded with 35 grains Goex 2F (from drop tube) under a Lee 255 grain FP, lubed with SPG through my Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon. It easily ran 30 rounds very smoothly but on the final 2 shots the fouling began to make itself apparent, dragging cylinder rotation. The only lube on the Dragoon arbor was a thin film of Break Free left over from last week's cleaning session. I'm very impressed with the performance of the Kirst cylinder in the Dragoon.

    n0xiRtPdNWPKxRWgGqrMZYfXGTgk07wDQ9daKhP-l0YIxZYrlCqB2vSdB209EyA_ByBHQQvvROxsW_iu5Q=w1200-h741-no.jpg

    Very pleased with the results from the Walker and also I appreciate all the fantastic advice given in this forum, an excellent repository of knowledge and experience. I thank you all again.

    Now comes my other problem...I was driving home from the range and was struck by a severe desire to go to my LGS and buy a Ruger Vaquero in .45 Colt to shoot black powder cartridges in. I don't know if I can fend that demon off :)

    Thanks!
     
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  24. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    You can't resist. You need that Vaquero. You know this in the deepest recesses of your heart you need that Vaquero!!! Go buy it now! :evil:
     
  25. LaneP

    LaneP Member

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    I lucked out...two different LGS's didn't have any in stock. WHEWWWWWW!! LOL :)
     
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