Walking The High Road

[priv8ter]

I love this website.

I really do.

I love discussions about why 9mm is better than 10mm(or at least .45). I love to talk about what kind of guns are best for taking on hoards of Undead Mall-Ninja's. I love having people telling me that the best deer gun for my wife is a 6.5 X 55. Six months ago, I didn't know the 6.5 Swede existed.

I am thankful for the newspaper articles people post on here. About anti-gun legislation being introduced, and about 15-year old girls being arrested for putting pictures of themselves on the internet. I can't say I love this, because sometimes, they make me mad. But, I am thankful.

Recently, I have tried to avoid some of the more...controversial sound threads. Then, like an idiot, I go and start one about the 'Iraqi Freedom Fighters'

While things have been kind of stressful around here lately with threads getting closed, and talk of ‘power corrupting’ I still love this site. I am going to keep coming here as long as I can log on. It’s a great thing Mr. Volk and the other Moderators have set up here.

What amazes me is not that we have had these problems lately, but that they took so long to happen. When you look at things, most of us that frequent The High Road can be seperated into two seperate groups, and it's amazing those two groups get along as well as we do most of the time.

The first group of gun lovers kind of matches what you see on TV on the Outdoor Life Channel. You know, the (mostly) Southern, (probably) God-Fearing, Traditionally Conservative type.

The other group is the one that I fall into more. More of a libertarian/anarchist(I know they are different), leaning towards being less religious(putting it mildly) which even extends towards having some fear/distrust of 'Big Relgion'.

And, while these two groups share a lot of common interest: Love of guns and a lack of interest in seeing the Government grow any bigger, there are just as many if not more things that we don't agree on. And, at times like that, I am glad that the moderators are here to keep things in line. I know some people will then squack 'Censorship' but...okay! This isn't the real world. It's a website. That is supposed to be about guns, and the 2nd Ammendment, with some other discussion allowed as far as it relates to oppresion of rights, and 'The Man Keeping Us Down.' There are other webistes which allow a complete and free discussion of whatever you want to talk about. Ever been to a Yahoo Chatroom lately? I have, and I'll keep the The High Road, thank you.

For just as long as The High Road will keep me.

Greg

 

[Destructo6]

There are more than the two categories listed. I'd say it is more of a spectrum than pidgeon holes.

I can't say I love this, because sometimes, they make me mad.

Maybe for different reasons, but it happens to me, too. At times, I've had to simply avoid the General and Political forums in favor of straight gun talk.

It's an election year, politics are in high gear. Add to that the emotions of a shooting war and gruesome acts. It's a recipe for heated discussion, but this board handles it better than most.

 

[fjolnirsson]

Priv8ter
Thanks for posting. I've been trying to figure how to say those very things.
Since I came here, I feel like I've been family. I don't want to lose that.
Folks, we have a great thing here. The problems we've had can be smoothed over. Let's all get back on the High Road.

 

[oneslowgun]

I come here JUST for the "Legal and Political" section (ok I do also brows the pistols and rifles for sale).

I don't post much, as I often see people make a post that is far more articulate, and mirrors what I would have posted anyway.

I come here because the discussions are by people that knowingly adhear to "The High Road", and don't debase the discussion by turning it into either a "flame war", or childish nay-saying.

 

[Werewolf]

As the thread starter stated:

"I love this website - I really do".

I've been visiting here every day since Sep 2003. I post in General, L&P, Rifle, Handgun General, Handgun Auto and the Handloading sections so I get around.

When I first got here I thought to myself WOW! I'd never seen a more civil and erudite forum anywhere on the internet before (and I've been to a lot of internet forums and participated in many a newsgroup since '94 and on many a phoneline BBS since '79).

I believed that the erudite discussion and civility existed because in my experience gun owners were just more civil and better educated than the average Joe Sixpack in the USA.

Lately though I've come to believe that the civility level here is completely artificial; that the what we see on a daily basis is pure facade. It exists because the normal amount of discord that is extant everywhere else is quickly and thoroughly exised by the powers that be.

Free speech isn't an issue. THR is private property and the owners and operators can do as they please. If we don't like it there's nothing but our own likes and dislikes keeping us here.

Can the owner/operators exise - that's not even in question.
Do the owner/operators have the right to exise - of course. It's their playground.

Should they exise? That's is the real question.

What are we missing everytime the axe is wielded, what viewpoints go unnoted, undiscussed and thus unable to educate one who might never have considered an idea in a way that the exised idea was presented.

How much information is lost because the knife is wielded freely. How often is that knife even wielded.

We don't know - because it's wielded so very quickly, thoroughly and effectively. And very often IMO wrongly. (the banning of MvPel for example because of his posts on Islam - well thought out and with numerous cites and not one personal attack).

This makes me personally feel as if I've been manipulated into providing only approved content. That by posting here I'm furthering the agenda of someone else. The fact that I agree with 80% of that agenda is irrelevant. The fact that we are like unto the sheep that so many of us deride when we participate in the process is disturbing.

But like one poster in another thread said "there really aren't any other options".

How sad...
How sad...

 

[dischord]

How much information is lost because the knife is wielded freely.

Almost none at all -- probably only a tiny fraction of 1% has been excised.

The moderators are very tolerant. It actually takes a lot to get them to come down on you.

I know that I've gotten out of line a number of times, myself, and at least should have been scolded. Only once did a moderator say anything -- I am very grateful for the moderators' tolerance and patience.

 

[fix]

I'm pretty sure that most folks directly involved in all the controversy have regrets over the whole thing. Frankly, the only one who did not step over the line during the whole thing was Derek (who ended up being the center of the controversy, unwittingly). I don't expect we'll see a whole lot of apologies, nor do I think anyone really owes them. I think it's just time to accept that we all get emotional and overreact, regardless of our "status" on this forum. I'm unsure about my future here, just like many others...but I'm holding out to see what Oleg has to say. I'd like to see the bans lifted under the circumstances, but I can't say that it will influence my decision to stay or go in one way or another. I do know that I've lost a great deal of respect for a number of people, who probably didn't know they even had it...and based on their comments during this episode, probably don't care that they've lost it.

 

[Bruce H]

When a moderator deletes something on this site it is more in line with incoherent blathering that useful information.

 

[grampster]

What Dischord said!

At the same time I come here to learn, to be amused, to laugh out loud (thank you Lawdog), to while away an hour or so when boredom sets in or I don't feel like going to bed early, and to opine from time to time (not always clearly, but usually with feeling), to see what familiar names have to say about things, to see about hunting and about different types of firearms and opinions about them, to see new names and new opinions etc. etc.

I don't fit easily into a pigeon hole as I am mostly conservative with perhaps some liberal bents from time to time (shhhhhh, don't tell anybody). I have a sense of outrage about certain things, but have done outrageous things in my life. If I get out of line, I appreciate being spanked. (hmmm, spanking......would that involve some ropes....?never mind) Even some of the threads that get closed because they veer have intinsic value, but even then some should be closed.


One is free to express themselves on THR, but that expression is not above moderation. Nothing wrong with that. Some folks equate freedom with having no need to be responsible, ever. I do not subscribe to that. Respect for the other guy's opinion is important. One need not ascribe to that opinion or one may even laugh out loud over the percieved ridiculousness of a given opinion, but we should always be mindfull to treat others as we would be treated. You catch more bees with honey than vinigar. (Before you call me a hypocrite, I understand my shortcomings and propensity to rant from time to time. But I also take my medicine when wrong) Given the choice between anarchy and civilization, I choose civilization. Look around the world and you will see anarchy; to the strong, absolute power. Total freedom to do anything usually leads eventually to outrage. We are free in America because we have recognized that the rule of law is better than the rule of Men. Daily we see examples of this as our freedoms are eroded here and there. There is a diference between living free responsibly and doing as one pleases irregardless of others. We also have to participate in that freedom to guarantee its continuance. Rather than finding fault with each other, perhaps it is better to reflect upon what unites us and work toward that end. (I just wish the Democrats would wake up and understand that, HEH)

grampster

 

[Werewolf]

BruceH stated:

When a moderator deletes something on this site it is more in line with incoherent blathering that useful information.

Is that opinion or is it fact?

If it's fact how do you know? Quantify incoherent blathering. Define useful information.

As the saying goes: "one man's meat is another man's poison".

Think about it...

 

[Derek Zeanah]

In general, the only messages I make disappear are at the request of members (like when someone accidentally triple-taps...).

However, I've watched a significant portion of the posts that have been deleted (we actually stored them for future reference, believe it or not) and the vast majority are for personal attacks.

• Everything I've learned in life leads me to believe you're wrong. OK
• That sounds wrong -- got a source that supports you? OK
• You know, if's guys like you....Marginal - response depends on context
• You blithering idiot. Do you really....Warning at best

Disagreements are ok. Fights are OK. Just be civil. That's the primary rule. Lately a number of moderators decided that "you know, our problem is with the Jews themselves, and I think the best option is extermination" kinds of comments are offensive enough to earn a quick response. That's not difficult to understand. When people started to do so anyway, in the same thread, there was another warning. Some people posting after that got banned.

There's no conspiracy here, and there's no effort to quiet voices that disagree with the moderators. Hell, we've got a Catholic priest, at least one Mormon, a Buddhist, Athiests, a Muslim, a pagan, a Jew, and others on staff. We've got liberals (though not on gun issues), conservatives, libertarians, and i-don't-care-anymore-ians. I'm not sure what you'd define as our collective position on any issue if we were to have one.

There is some agreement, though, that genocide is not a solution to any problem that the human race faces. There's agreement that "kill all muslims" is about as offensive as "hang all the damn *******," which is something that would result in a no-questions-asked BAN from day one. (Well, the first day it was discussed). Bigotry ain't the high road.

I guess I don't see the confusion here, and I don't see why swift action on one issue would lead you to distrust all past moderating decisions. Clearly, I've missed something. What?

 

[pax]

Derek's post is exactly right -- only he left "protestant Christians" off the list of religions among the moderators. Pretty sure he left others out too, but I noticed that one.

For the rest of what he said, I'm going to repeat something I said in this forum some time ago: I suppose ordinary Germans had civil and courteous discussions with each other about the place of the Jews in modern German society, in the years leading up to WWII. Too bad the consensus eventually was, "The Jews are our affliction." It seems to me as though ordinary Americans are headed toward making the same basic decision about Muslims that the Germans made about the Jews. We appear to be in the process of picking out a group of people within our borders, and announcing that they are the cause of all our problems.

I don't want to have any part of enabling such a conversation on the part of my compatriots. It shames me to belong to a forum which provides a venue for such a discussion.

There is no civil or polite way to call for genocide, people. Such calls do not belong on THR no matter how courteously they are phrased.

pax

 

[Wildalaska]

Hooray, the voice of reason,!!!!!


]QUOTE]We appear to be in the process of picking out a group of people within our borders, and announcing that they are the cause of all our problems.[/QUOTE]

Now if we could just stop including cops and "sheeple" in that process..

Aint no one my enemy until he tries to kill me. The sins of the fathers aint visited on the sons either.

WildwaxingphilosophicalAlaska

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Indeed. After having seen how really bad moderation can cause cycles of attack and retribution and beat the living #3!! out of a board, I'm grateful that the mods here take a light hand.

(And, yes, I've had a couple of threads closed down here too.)

- pdmoderator

 

[gyp_c2]

That all sounds correct...and is of course quite fair, I just didn't see the post suggesting genocide of a religion or race by the poster named or called, " mvpel" If that's what he stated, then that's outside the guidelines I read in the Guide...and subject to whatever you think's right.
I just didn't SEE it, and the posts that I remembered were quotes from other speeches or articles..which is, I understood, an acceptable method to support positions.
I'm just speaking for myself here, I hadn't read anything from him in the past that was controversial in any way and without being able to go back and check the posts...well, you see the problem. There were no posts...
I'm first in line if an apology is due, but if there's not...
Maybe I'm the only one that remembers it that way, you have the luxury of confirming, I don't...It is a very rough time and we certainly want to be observant of our guidelines and just plain good manners. I don't think we can afford to lose our allies over something that can be fixed though...and if that's a possiblity I'm all for going the extra distance.

Thanks for everything Derek, I certainly appreciate evrything you do for all of us.

g2

 

[Joe Demko]

Okay, everybody, let's pause and take a few deep breaths.
Peach in...
Green out...
Peach in...
Green out...
If we're all centered now, can we take a dispassionate look at recent events?
Moderators said to stop doing certain things.
Members did those things.
Moderators banned those members. Others left on their own.
Why is there all the drama? This is a privately financed board. If the ones footing the bill (or designated agents) say "Don't!", there isn't anything to discuss. Fair? I think so, but it doesn't matter if it isn't. Stay and play by the rules or go find some new playmates. What could be simpler? It isn't like anybody is required to be here.
I've been on the pointy end of moderator wrath before. I didn't always think it was justified, but on the other hand, I didn't turn right around and do exactly the same thing again that ticked them off in the first place.
As I said in another (locked) thread, stop the eulogies. The members you are grieving over aren't dead. Right now, they are probably posting at another board about how shabbily they feel they were treated here. The overdramatization of their having been banned from an internet discussion board (in a world where people are decapitated on video tape just to make a political statement) is unseemly, at best.

 

[bigjim]

PAX SAID: I suppose ordinary Germans had civil and courteous discussions with each other about the place of the Jews in modern German society, in the years leading up to WWII. Too bad the consensus eventually was, "The Jews are our affliction." It seems to me as though ordinary Americans are headed toward making the same basic decision about Muslims that the Germans made about the Jews. We appear to be in the process of picking out a group of people within our borders, and announcing that they are the cause of all our problems.

I don't want to have any part of enabling such a conversation on the part of my compatriots. It shames me to belong to a forum which provides a venue for such a discussion.

There is no civil or polite way to call for genocide, people. Such calls do not belong on THR no matter how courteously they are phrased.
__________________________________________________________


I agree with the intent of your post. But I disagree strongly with what you actually said. I see no evidence of a group of Americans anywhere beyond the usual nuts in some sad isolated cult or disenfranchised movement that are calling for genocide of Muslims or anyone else. What I do see is very clear evidence of a large subset of Muslims bent on the destruction of the west. I see evidence that this Muslim cultural aberration is one that can not be reasoned with coddled and made to go away with fair treatment alone. We are going to have to kill them. Until we do they are going to be trying to kill us.

There was no subset of Jews in Germany flying airliners into buildings because they hated German culture. There was no group of radical Jews slicing the heads off German reporters and relief workers. The Germans were just plain wrong.

There really is a definable group of Muslims doing these things and we must take steps to stop that from happening. So how do we do it? I don’t have the answers. But I know limiting speech and being so PC as to make the very concept of offending people a problem of greater importance than say, keeping Middle Eastern Muslim Men from Saudi Arabia the hell off of airliners flying in the US, does not help our cause.

I just had this very argument with my father. He jumped me for referring to the homeless in San Francisco as “those peopleâ€. He effectively ended the discussion and made reaching a solution impossible by valuing feelings over getting at the truth.

In my mind it looks like this. We have a diverse group of people called Muslims.

A. Some Muslims think and act as if Islam is a religion of peace.
B. Some Muslims think they need to kill westerners and are willing to do so.
C. Some Muslims while not willing to kill westerners are supporting those that will.

It is very likely that we need to kill the bulk of groups B and C. Pax help us out here, find away to frame these ideas and talk about them in a way that won’t offend anyone ok?

I guess I have more faith in the American people. I think that as long as we are are a nation ruled by laws, laws created using the principals outlined in the Constitution of the United States we can survive any form of speech.

THR on the other hand may not be that robust. You may be right after all.

 

[kbr80]

Well said bigjim.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

I see evidence that this Muslim cultural aberration is one that can not be reasoned with coddled and made to go away with fair treatment alone. We are going to have to kill them. Until we do they are going to be trying to kill us.

You're not the only one, and we've tried discussing this before. It generally goes like this:

You: Muslims are trying to bring America down.

Me: No, you've got a bunch of folks in the middle east dealing with issues like the US supporting and propping up fairly evil regimes that squash the local people (look at Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Iran under the Shah for easy examples), the US standing behind Israel in a conflict that's striking near to the heart of most middle easterners (regardless of religion -- look at the Christian Palestinians and their condition), the fact that they're essentially being dragged from an agrarian economy straight into the information age (and no-one goes through a bloodless industrial revolution). These are tough issues, and they're the origin of our current problems (OBL's demands were two: get our troops out of Saudi Arabia, and stop bailing Israel out). The conflict is cultural, not religious.

You: But they're Muslim! They say it's the will of God! They chant "God is great" while beheading westerners!

Me: In the US, our leaders gain legitimacy based on support of the populace. The paradigm we work through is that of democracy, and "the will of the people." In the middle east, it's religion. Just because Jesse Jackson gets ordained weeks before the first run for office doesn't mean he represents mainstream Christianity, and this goes both ways. Historically, haven't evil people always tried to clothe themselves in the appearance of righteousness? Wasn't feudal europe supported by the idea of the Divine Right of Kings? Same in Japan, and China, and ancient Egypt? "God" is a stick that can be weilded against ignorant people by those who would enslave them.


You: But they're Muslim!

Me: At best, they're whabbis (sp?); a sect that started 40-60 years ago and really caught on in Saudi Arabia. They don't represent Islam.

You: But they're Muslim!

Me: We already covered this.

You: But if we take an old, bad translation of the Qur'an that doesn't give context and quote the right way, we can PROVE that Islam says you have to murder us INFIDELS!

Me: No you can't. (I'll give details which will then be ignored.)

You: They want to kill us!

You2: Mohommad was confused; Gabriel didn't give him that recitation, it was Satan! Besides, my preacher said...

We've tried it. Rational, polite discourse on this topic isn't possible on this forum. I'm sorry -- it should be, as there's a lot of ignorance on a topic that's of huge importance to me -- but past history has shown we can't keep these discussions on a high enough level.

I like to think of myself as a reasonably rational man, but I've learned that I can't participate in those threads without things getting our of hand.

The High Road is a valuable place, and it's not something that we should allow to self-destruct. Yeah, we should be able to talk about religion. We can't. It's been tried, and tried, and tried -- it was verbotten back in TFL days before 9/11. And it gets in the way of the mission of the board.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

Note that when I say you above I'm not referring to you in particular, but to those who choose to pursue your side of this argument.

No offense intended.

 

[fjolnirsson]

Yeah, we should be able to talk about religion. We can't. It's been tried, and tried, and tried -- it was verbotten back in TFL days before 9/11. And it gets in the way of the mission of the board.

If anybody wants to see some really amusing discourse along the lines of religion, try visiting any multi-faith forum at this web site:
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/index.asp
The moderators try, but they have nowhere near enough for their volume.

Personally, I try to stay out of religious discussions involving firearms.

 

[bigjim]

Derek said: Note that when I say you above I'm not referring to you in particular, but to those who choose to pursue your side of this argument.

No offense intended.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

None taken Derek.

If I were prone to be offended by this type of thing this second post would come closer to the mark.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

As I have mentioned before,go to the bowsite community forum and read some REAL meanspirited posts.They discuss the same stuff that folks here talk about but it can get ugly.Most boards these days are getting pretty emotional and I have seen folks leave on other sites.The Mods here have a tough job,kinda like herding cats.....they are doing well,let's try to make their job as easy as we can.It's a High road thing....

 

[spacemanspiff]

i've done a bit of research on german philosophy, and probably the only comparison that could be made between the germans and the jews, is that its us heathen Americans that are in the role the Jews played prior to WWII.

remember, the germans didnt jump in feet first to the genocide and mass killings of the jews or polish or gypsys or political prisoners or jehovahs witnesses.

they were able to get their own peoples approval to first sterilize, and then 'mercy kill' their physically and mentally handicapped, as well as alcohoics, drug addicts, and even the sexually promiscous.
once the german people were okay with the thought of their own family members being killed (under the guise of medical boards reviewing each individual case to see if the subject was 'worthy' of living) it wasnt difficult for them to accept the sterilization and killing of anyone non-aryan.

were ALL germans in agreement with the 'final solution'? of course not.

are ALL islamic practicioners in agreement that the infidels must be murdered? of course not.

are ALL muslims to blame for 9/11? of course not.

are ALL muslims willing to participate in barbaric acts towards Americans? of course not.


now, is it the intention of America to suppress the muslims? NO! if they want to do their thing without hurting anyone (especially our countrymen and women) America wont stand in their way.
however, NATIONAL SOCIALIST FANATICS in germany definitely were not happy with simply letting everyone do their own thing. they wanted to erase the jews and all that tainted their aryan heritage.
much like the MILITANT FANATICS of islam wish to do to America.

i'm not sure if i explained myself adequately, but my point is, that while similarities exist between germany/jews and Americans/muslims, it isnt the similarites many might assume.

 

[fix]

Derek

You're certainly not obligated to do so, but I feel we could all benefit from your perspective on the issue of militant Islam...and Islam in general. I think much of the hatred stems from ignorance. I see Bible verses taken out of context all the time and am in a position (along with other believers) to correct it when things get out of hand. You are one of the few Muslims in this community. The fact that you and your fellow Muslims are here pretty much puts you on our side. I like to refer to you as "our Muslims" to help clarify things. The terms Islamist and Islamofascist are confusing and muddy the waters. I just like plain old terrorists. Maybe we could all benefit from you taking an active part in diffusing these situations in the future. As I said before, you certainly are not obligated to do anything, but the hypothetical discussion you posted above would have probably put this baby to rest before things got out of hand. I think that's what most of the angry crowd (which I thought I was a member of until I saw how far some folks are willing to take it) wants to hear. One of "our Muslims" setting the record straight, for the benefit of all involved. It has become very clear to me in recent months that this is strictly a cultural issue, and you are a part of our culture. Why not be our resident expert on Islam?