Wall penetration v Stopping power.

Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Lonestar

Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
701
My shooting friends and I had a friendly disagreement about this. Test have shown that a 9mm glaser round will still sail thru at least 6 sheets of dry wall. Birdshot will stop in the second sheet of drywall (representing one wall of a home), but birdshot is a questionable manstopper.

Is there any Magic Bullet out there that will be a decent stopper and will not excessively penetrate drywall (meaning after penetrating 2 sheets it will be traveling so slow that it will not cause a serious/fatal injury to someone on the other side)

A turkey load from a shotgun. A Quickshok from a .22. A glaser coming out of a .32acp mousegun. Slow and Heavy Cowboy target wadcutters. A 5.7 or .223 fragmention round. Does the magic bullet exist? I would love www.theboxotruth.com to solve this riddle. Something that alone can penetrate 2 or 3 water jugs, but when it goes thru 2 sheets of drywall it can barely penetrate one.
 
No it does not exist. Since it is harder for a bullet to penetrate flesh than drywall, it doesn't seem likely. If you can invent one, you will have a better mousetrap and be rich.
 
The Buick Solution

What you need is a large calibre, low velocity, steerable round.

What I have found works best is the Buick Car-bine.

The Buick is large, and has a top speed indoors of about 70 or 80 fps. It is sub-sonic, and the primer + combustibles doesn't make a lot of noise.

The walls, however, may make a loud splintering sound, as well as any furniture that gets in the way of the round, once fired.

After impact with the target, the Buick has a built-in brake system that will usually stop it before it harms any innocent bystanders.

Your family will be safe, but your insurance company may cancel your policy.

Not recommended for use above the ground floor.
 
Very likely does not exist. Large caliber, heavy weight, low velocity actually would be a workable approach though. A hunting broadhead arrow will penetrate flesh and bone readily, but will penetrate far less drywall than a bullet, probably. Actually, that would make an interesting Box o' Truth.
 
birdshot is a questionable manstopper
Click to expand...

Are you talking about a shotgun or handgun "snake load"?
Birdshot from a shotgun is a serious manstopper.
If your'e talking handgun, check out the new Taurus 45LC/.410 revolver. I saw it on Personal Defense TV, and it's a formidable close quarter man stopper that shouldn't over penetrate with .410 shotshells.
 
Are you talking about a shotgun or handgun "snake load"?
Birdshot from a shotgun is a serious manstopper.
If your'e talking handgun, check out the new Taurus 45LC/.410 revolver. I saw it on Personal Defense TV, and it's a formidable close quarter man stopper that shouldn't over penetrate with .410 shotshells.
Click to expand...


Check the revolver forum...I talked about the 4410 a few times, seems to have promise.

It was on Personal Defense TV, that got to put that show on prime time, I keep missing it.
 
James NM said:
Birdshot from a shotgun is a serious manstopper.
Click to expand...

Right. Source? :neener:

Anyway, no, the Magic Bullet (for any purpose, not just penetration-minded home defense) does not exist, else we'd all be using it.

Hollowpoints, in a handgun, would be your best bet. Can't penetrate drywall if it doesn't fully penetrate the bad guy.
 
Unless you can defy those pesky laws of physics, no you can't have penetration in bad guys yet no penetration in drywall.
I'd never use birdshot for defense. That is only a good defense round if you assume the bad guy will scream "Oh my gosh you shot me!!!" and run away. If he's on drugs you'll be wishing you had something that would go more than a couple inches deep. Birdshot will make nasty shallow wounds...which he won't see until much later.
 
Well, personally, I load my single shot 12 Gauge with a 3inch magnum Turkey Shell (which happens to be all I have at hand right now, the other stuff is some *really* light birdshot, but the Turkey load should work for smaller pests like a rabid dog or raccoon or whatever, and I'm confident a shot to the face will stop anyone)

For bigger pests my Rock Island 1911 is loaded up with Hydra Shoks. Though I hope to never have to find out if it will shoot through walls after going through a bad guy.
 
At ranges less than 5 yards or so, birdshot (from a shotgun) will indeed do a number on someone. There are plenty of corpses in the morgue who'd testify to the fact (if they could). Don't forget that at close range, the birdshot emerges from the barrel as a solid mass, and only begins to disperse after 2-3 yards. I'd prefer buckshot or slug, sure, but at close range, birdshot'll solve your problems.
 
That is the thing that stinks about birdshot you have to be close to arms length for it to be effective. Beyond that it is really questionable. Harry Whittington is perfect example of what .410 birdshot does at longer distances. Cheney's buddy basically got a bad case of birdshot acne, and I think he had more complications from being scared then being shot. .410 bird shot at 2 feet would do a some serious damage and probably give a BG a nasty wound, but at 20 feet it would give a bunch of very minor wounds and would be very non-lethal, and that is not good if the BG is armed. Like the 12 or 20 gauge, I would look for something between birdshot and buckshot for a good combo of lethality and lack of wall penetration.

My problem with glasers is that they are very expensive and yet they give you a false sense of security. A 9mm Glaser Blue round will sail thru 2 to 4 layers of sheetrock and still be very lethal if it hits someone on the other side. Still it better that using regular JHP or FMJ ammo. I wonder if a slower round like a .45 or a smaller round like a .32 in Glaser or magsafe would break up sooner in sheetrock than the 9mm.

My Christmas wish is for the guys at www.theboxotruth.com to play around with this concept and figure out the best compromise between lethality and wall penetration. In the end, it might be llike others have said, a pipe dream that does not exist.
 
With any projectile, fired from any firearm, you have two primary factors which contribute to that legendary goal of "stopping power"- penetration, and placement. In other words, if you miss vital areas, penetration is pretty much irrelevant. And if you place shots well yet your projectiles fail to penetrate to reach vital areas, then placement is pretty much irrelevant. Trying to boil it down to just penetration won't work.

As a data point I offer the following link:
https://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html

hth,

lpl/nc
 
I've seen this thread time and time again. I have the answer. :uhoh:

Problem/Question: You want a bullet to defy the laws of physics. If a bullet is going to effectively kill someone, it is going to effectively over penetrate most residential building matterials. Answer: You can determine your Geometry.

Stage your Home/Apt; Determine what enterance the Hostile Targets would use, which walls it would be "really bad" to shoot through. Determine what walls would be OK to shoot through. Determine what walls would stop a bullet.

Practice, Dry runs, Sweep and Pie off your liveing quarters, you have time to practice and conduct movement there at your own free will, (you don't even need an RSO or ORM plan). Have a tactical plan set in place in your head, so if the situation should arise you'll react from your training.

Example Plan
For me I can shoot through my bed room door the rounds will land in the linnen closet and 2nd bed room closet stopped by cement block wall, but I can't just step out of my bed room to the left and start shooting down the hall way, it would send bullets traveling into the a joining apartment, but I can move down the hall way and fire twords the front door and the back doors, they are free game, along with most of the kitchen, I also can't fire twords the wall from between my TV and the corner of the wall in my liveing room, I can exit my bed room and fire to the full flank of the second bed room as this room is in the back corner of the building, cement block construction, the second bedroom is a free fire zone with the exception of the window. If I have to fire down the hall way, I've determined that I will need to take a knee and fire upward at the intruder, so as to place any missed rounds into the cement ceiling and not in a strait path through the wall joining my apartment.

I'm just a crazy Devil Dog, so... I maybe a little extreem on this. For legal purposes I wouldn't tell the LEO that you'd planned for this type of stiuation, I'd just say "self defence" and ask for a lawyer. Expecially when the cops roll up in South Cali and see all those empty high cap mags and smell the brass burning the carpet :neener:
 
I'd personally rather use a .22 than a 12 ga. with birdshot, if your much farther than arms lengh from some one birdshot will likely just p!ss them off.

check out www.boxotruth.com that should answer most of your questions
 
I'd personally rather use a .22 than a 12 ga. with birdshot, if your much farther than arms lengh from some one birdshot will likely just p!ss them off.

check out http://www.theboxotruth.com/ that should answer most of your questions
 
How come nobody mentions that if you are really concerned with this, just build brick walls in between rooms? I bet even metal sheeting attached to your walls will make a difference.
 
Reinforced Walls

quatin:
Interesting point.

I've spent . . . uh . . . some money . . . on the machinery I'd use to defend my home against zombies.

I wonder what it would cost to add a layer of something a little more robust than sheetrock to the walls.

Anyone out there know of a plastic that could be added as a paneling behind sheetrock that would improve the ballistic resistance of walls?

Any idea what something like that would cost?

Any idea if that cost would be less than, say, burying your family or paying a high-priced lawyer to keep you out of jail or even actually spending time in jail?
 
If your'e talking handgun, check out the new Taurus 45LC/.410 revolver. I saw it on Personal Defense TV, and it's a formidable close quarter man stopper that shouldn't over penetrate with .410 shotshells.
Click to expand...

.410 shotshells from a handgun are NOT repeat NOT a viable manstopper. They are for snakes and very small birds at close range, particularly out of a handgun. They were never supposed to be used against humans as a defensive weapon, and it's likely you'd do more than pepper someone you shot. You could do better loading .410 slugs, though even those are only considered viable for game under 50 lbs. Moreover, if you want to use the Taurus revolver for defense, why not go up to a .45 Colt?

Stop worrying about overpenetration. If you're so worried about punching through drywall, you shouldn't be shooting in the first place. Worry about having a firearm with enough power to take down a 300 lb. man on high octane drugs. Then practice extensively with that firearm.
 
Anyone out there know of a plastic that could be added as a paneling behind sheetrock that would improve the ballistic resistance of walls?

Any idea what something like that would cost?
Click to expand...

Yes there are materials available. Search bullet resistant wall material and you will find companies that sell them. Some are halfway affordable (think of the cages that cashiers set in at some gas stations) and some are very expensive. If I was worried about it I think I would consider the layout, pick areas that are more likely to be hit by gunfire, and add some concrete blocks there. Plain ol dirt is also pretty good at stopping bullets, even though the walls would have to be reinforced to hold it.
 
Actually, the Sharps rifle I carry has great stopping power, but won't penetrate the drywall walls of my house with any great force.

Note that I'm saying the RIFLE, not the bullet. It weighs about ten pounds, and has a steel buttplate with a pointed corner on it. Serious stopping power, but won't accidentally penetrate a wall.
 
I put a layer of 18-inch square rubber bullet traps on every wall. Now I can shoot where ever I want, whenever I want, up to .300 Winmag.

Except I can't fit down the hall anymore.

Good insulation though.

:p
 
I wonder what it would cost to add a layer of something a little more robust than sheetrock to the walls.

Anyone out there know of a plastic that could be added as a paneling behind sheetrock that would improve the ballistic resistance of walls?

Any idea what something like that would cost?

Any idea if that cost would be less than, say, burying your family or paying a high-priced lawyer to keep you out of jail or even actually spending time in jail?
Click to expand...

Interestingly enough, The Box O' Truth #34 is about that subject. Doesn't work too well though. But, sand seems to work great. It'd make for good sound insulation to boot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

R
  • Locked
rem 870 hd gun
Replies
0
Views
385
RONSERESURPLUS
R
N
  • Locked
Pistol Penetration Thoughts
2
Replies
30
Views
3K
Pat_Rogers
P
B
  • Locked
The POWER of Buckshot!
Replies
11
Views
2K
Preacherman
P
Back
Top