Walnuts in my primer hole

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MadOtis

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Hello all,

I've done a few thousand pistol loads so far (cleaned with walnut media in a vibratory cleaner) BEFORE de-priming with no issues.

Now, I've stared reloading .223 rifle brass and followed the same process. However, I've seen videos of people throwing the resized/deprimed brass back into the vibratory cleaner to clean the case-lube off the brass before neck trimming and swaging. After this second, short cleaning cycle, I notice alot of walnut media in the primer hole (not the pocket, the hole between the primer and the gunpowder section of the case. Is this normal? I ended up having to use a toothpick to push out media from about 1/3 of the 500 cases I started to prep.

Also, as a side question, do you swage, then neck trim? Or, trim then swage?

Thanks in advance!
 
That's a mighty big primer hole! :D

If you use the smaller corn cod media available, it will be rare to have any stick. I poke them out as well, but don't worry about missing one as they don't stand a chance in hades of stopping the primer explosion from reaching the powder.

It's called the flash hole. :)
 
That is normal. Tumble then size/deprime and post load tumble to knock off the lube.

I size/deprime and trim with one machine then swage and load on another but you can swage at anytime, trimmed, sized or not. It makes no difference.
 
Media in flash holes is normal, if your media is too big.
I use Zilla brand lizard litter from Petco, and hardly ever have any.

I look at it all and inspect for defects anyway, so poking media out of flash holes is no big deal.

In fact, I generally set them mouth down 50 at a time in a loading block to count them.
And it's very easy to give them a poke then if you see any stuck media.


Swaging before or after trimming makes no difference.
As long as you have re-sized before trimming.

rc
 
As said, finer ground media will have a less chance of being stuck in the flash hole.

I use a stiff piece of wire like welding wire to insure the flash holes are clear. A small awl or a dental pick would do a similar job.

I resize and clean cases shortly after shooting so batches are small, I do not spend much time prepping the small batches, and the drudgery is low. I then store the cleaned and prepped cases for loading at a later time.
 
Slightly different...

One of my reasons for tumbling/cleaning fired brass is to get rid of all the gunk that might scratch the dies.

I usually tumble with used primers still in the case. I've done some checking and find no real difference between 'dirty' and 'clean' primer pockets. I do have a couple of 'precision' rifles - at least in my somewhat ravaged mind - and I clean the primer pockets on those.

So I deprime with a universal depriming die, then tumble. All the residue media lodged in the primer flash hole comes out when I re-size and deprime.
 
Media comes in different sizes. I use mostly corn cob from Grainger and it is available in two grit grades: 12/20 which is larger and will definitely get stuck in flash holes. Then they offer 20/40 which is about half the size of 12/20 grit. That stuff just falls out of the brass and doesn't get stuck at all.
 
It really doesn't matter what order you do things in, other than, I like to get all my case preparation done, resizing, trimming, ream / chamfer, clean primer pockets, then I tumble them real good to remove any remaining lube residue. Once all that has been taken care of, I then clear all the flash holes of media. Even though it probably makes little or no difference, I still like to have my flash holes completely clear of anything.

GS
 
I use corn cob media in my tumbler and the occasional piece gets stuck in the flash hole. Easiest solution is I keep an unwrapped paper clip on my reloading bench to poke them out.
 
Thanks, all! I know, now, that it's normal to have walnuts in my flash hole. ;)

And, thanks for the tips; I won't worry what order I trim/swage in, then. I guess I was reading how some others see some slight dimpling right around the primer pocket after swaging, and wondered if it would affect case OAL or not... looks like I don't need to worry about that, then, if it happens to me (and obviously still fits properly in the case gauge).

Cheers!
 
I used to get a lot of corn cob and especially walnut stuck in the flash holes. I bought one of the tumbling media seperators and that cut the problem down to almost none.

I still look though
 
"...people throwing the resized/deprimed brass back into the vibratory cleaner to clean the case-lube off the brass...."
Don't bother. Residual case lube in "normal" quantities beyond simple wipe-off w/ a paper
towel has near minimal effect on bolt thrust, and actually assists in gas gun functioning.
See http://www.varmintal.com/afric.htm

.
 
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1) Unless you have a rear-locking bolt action rifle and are loading over 60,000psi, a little case lube is NOT an issue. Even the latest Hornady manual only warns about case lube if you are shooting rifles at max pressures.
2) Use 20/40 grit and you won't have any in the primer pocket or flash hole.
3) If you run the cases through a decapper, most/all of the grit will fall out.
4) If you handle the cases while reloading single-stage in batch mode, your hands will remove all the lube you need to, even for max loads.
 
The primer pocket is one thing the flash hole is another. The last thing I do before priming is stand the cases in a block with the case head up. With no shortage of primer punches by all manufacturers I have a choice, I clear all flash holes and wonder about all the complaining I have heard from reloaders about something they can do little about. I accept it, I clear the flash holes.

F. Guffey
 
1) Unless you have a rear-locking bolt action rifle and are loading over 60,000psi, a little case lube is NOT an issue. Even the latest Hornady manual only warns about case lube if you are shooting rifles at max pressures.

Hornady said?:scrutiny: and then think about it:eek:

Leaving lube on a case is like installing a magnet to dirt, I want my cases clean, I want nothing between the case body and chamber, I want my case to lock onto the chamber. I want 100% contact. I am the fan of grip, and Hornady said :eek:

I am not a slide and glide shooter, I know, lubing the case solves all the problems with case stretch, problem, I am not a fan of allowing the case to stretch, it is just like leaving lube on the case, I want to cut down on all that case travel, I do all of that before I pull the trigger.

You bet, no problem and etc.. I tumble after sizing to remove lube.

F. Guffey
 
Unless you have a rear-locking bolt action rifle and are loading over 60,000psi, a little case lube is NOT an issue. Even the latest Hornady manual only warns about case lube if you are shooting rifles at max pressures.

100% agree. Lube only becomes an issue if you are firing over pressure ammunition. But then, why do dry case shooters use that as an excuse for firing over pressure ammunition?

In 2010 the Army first article tested a SAWS. The test report required the SAWS and the ammunition to be conditioned for three days at 160 F. It is apparent that the technical core competency within the Army is so low, that no one understood that heating ammunition raises combustion pressures. Firing 160 F ammunition in a 160 F weapon caused malfunctions. Later analysis shows that they were firing at least 72,000 psia ammunition (predicted) in a weapon designed to support a 52,000 psia cartridge (most likely design load). So what did the Army conclude was the problem?: Oil!. Yes oil, not overpressure ammunition. Lubrication’s Contribution to Case Failure www.dtic.mil/ndia/2011ballistics/11826.pdf

They still don't understand why they had case head ruptures, they still don't understand that raising pressures above design limits is bad. If you notice, they don't know the design limits of the weapons they manage, because they never designed them. The Army lost their in house small arms designers back in the early 60's when Springfield Armory closed. They barely understand that over pressure ammunition will cause problems. Stupid is as stupid does.


Leaving lube on a case is like installing a magnet to dirt, I want my cases clean, I want nothing between the case body and chamber, I want my case to lock onto the chamber. I want 100% contact. I am the fan of grip, and Hornady said


I don’t disagree with the dirt issue, that more than anything else, is why I use dry waxy lubricants on my Garand and M1a match ammunition. It takes longer to apply Johnson paste wax with my fingers and buff the rapid fire rounds, than it does to wash off the case lube in the sink, but my ammunition lasts till the primer pockets expand, and I don’t have case head separations.

The process of industrially applying a dry lubricant was something that Pedersen patented way back in 1930:

Patented Nov. 4, 1930

PATENT OFFICE JOHN DOUGLAS PEDERSEN, OF SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS

http://www.google.com/patents/US1780566

In the preparation of cartridges having metal cases for storage and for use, it has been found desirable to apply to said metal case a relatively thin coating of some protective substance which will preserve said metal case for comparatively long periods of time against-deterioration, such as season cracking. In the present invention, the material for said coating has been so chosen as to perform the additional function of acting as a lubricant for the case of the cartridge, both for facilitating introduction into the chamber of the gun and the extraction thereof after firing. The most suitable wax which I have found for this purpose and which I at present prefer is ceresin, a refined product of ozokerite; but I wish it to be understood that other waxes having similar qualities may exist which might serve equally well. Some of the desirable features of ceresin are that it is hard and non-tacky at ordinary temperatures having a melting point somewhere between 140 and 176 Fahrenheit. It is smooth and glassy when hard and does not gather dirt or dust. However, when the ceresin on the cartridges is melted in the chamber of a gun, it becomes a lubricant.

Other lubricating waxes have been employed for coating cartridges, and the method most generally pursued for applying said coating to the cartridge case has been to prepare a heated bath of a solution of the wax in a suitable solvent, dip the cartridges therein so that a film of the solution will adhere thereto, and finally withdraw the cartridges to permit the solvent to evaporate from the coating film. This former process is comparatively slow and has been found lacking in several important respects.​

For load testing at the range, I lube the cases up and fire them that way. I want the full bolt thrust applied to any bolt rifle I am shooting so I can feel sticky bolt lift. It does not hurt that it also prevents case head separations. With the cost of belted magnum cases being over a dollar a case, I don't want massive side wall stretch on first firing. Lubing the cases prevents that.

If lubricated cases were so bad, how come the Austrians were doing it prior to WW1?

Army Ordnance Magazine, March-April 1933

Automatic Firearms, Mechanical Principles used in the various types, by J. S. Hatcher. Chief Smalls Arms Division Washington DC.

Retarded Blow-back Mechanism………………………..

There is one queer thing, however, that is common to almost all blow-back and retarded blow-back guns, and that is that there is a tendency to rupture the cartridges unless they are lubricated. This is because the moment the explosion occurs the thin front end of the cartridge case swells up from the internal pressure and tightly grips the walls of the chamber. Cartridge cases are made with a strong solid brass head a thick wall near the rear end, but the wall tapers in thickness until the front end is quiet thin so that it will expand under pressure of the explosion and seal the chamber against the escape of gas to the rear. When the gun is fired the thin front section expands as intended and tightly grips the walls of the chamber, while the thick rear portion does not expand enough to produce serious friction. The same pressure that operates to expand the walls of the case laterally, also pushes back with the force of fifty thousand pounds to the square inch on the head of the cartridge, and the whole cartridge being made of elastic brass stretches to the rear and , in effect, give the breech block a sharp blow with starts it backward. The front end of the cartridge being tightly held by the friction against the walls of the chamber, and the rear end being free to move back in this manner under the internal pressure, either one of two things will happen. In the first case, the breech block and the head of the cartridge may continue to move back, tearing the cartridge in two and leaving the front end tightly stuck in the chamber; or, if the breech block is sufficiently retarded so that it does not allow a very violent backward motion, the result may simply be that the breech block moves back a short distance and the jerk of the extractor on the cartridge case stops it, and the gun will not operate.

However this difficultly can be overcome entirely by lubricating the cartridges in some way. In the Schwarzlose machine gun there is a little pump installed in the mechanism which squirts a single drop of oil into the chamber each time the breech block goes back. In the Thompson Auto-rifle there are oil-soaked pads in the magazine which contains the cartridges. In the Pedersen semiautomatic rifle the lubrication is taken care of by coating the cartridges with a light film of wax.

Blish Principle….There is no doubt that this mechanism can be made to operate as described, provided the cartridge are lubricated, …. That this type of mechanism actually opens while there is still considerable pressure in the cartridge case is evident from the fact that the gun does not operate satisfactorily unless the cartridges are lubricated.​

Here is a question Guffey: Here in 1933, Hatcher is writing about the Schwarzlose machine gun which used an oiler and greased bullets. The greased bullets are an historical fact. And yet, in 1947, when Hatcher is writing Hatcher's Notebook, and creating that section claiming that greased bullets dangerously raise pressures and dangerously increase bolt thrust, what happened between 1933 and 1947? So why is a guy who knows about Swiss greased bullets, Austrian greased bullets, and the Oerlikon greased ammunition, how did he forget that in 1947?
 
Use 20-40 ad noylj said. never had any stuck in a primer hole.
40 lb boxes are the least expensive possible, and shipped to the door.
 
I tumble mine after sizing. I load "semi-progressively" in a LCT. After all case prep, I have a die with universal decapper in first position (knocks out any media from final tumbling), then prime on the press, then either charge on the press for .308 or remove from press and charge with redding measure for .30-06, then seat the bullet. Goes really quick once all the laborious process of brass prep is done. :)
 
No need to tumble again after sizing/decapping. Just wipe excess lube off the case with a piece of old undershirt. I swage, then measure. Trim if necessary.
 
My solution for media in the flash hole is to put the decapping rod in the sizer and punch the offending particles out. While the squirrels might be upset, it works.
 
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