Want a new semi-auto rifle but

Status
Not open for further replies.
F

fireside44

member
Joined
Sep 22, 2009
Messages
1,145
I can't figure out which way to go. I really wanted a particular rifle but it's simply out of my price range at $1200 or thereabouts. I'm not doing right by me and mine spending that kind of money so selfishly. So I'm looking for something I can have in my hand for no more than $850 including tax and/or shipping and transfer fee.

So I was fixing to settle on an M4 type I had found for a real good price that had all the features I wanted in one. Problem is, I don't really want an M4 or AR all that bad. I think I would rather have an AK but I don't really want to shell out the kind of money they want for an Arsenal. It seems Arsenal is pretty proud of their stuff. I'm unfamiliar with other AK makes and definitely don't need a potential headache from Century even though I was eyeballing the Galil's they ceased production on. I'm about a week away from having enough to pull the trigger on something and I'm at a loss all of the sudden.

Should I get the M4 I was looking at? Are there quality AK's out there for less than the Arsenals? I want something more or less turnkey ready to go. Is there something else I should consider? I know it's horrible, having to buy a new gun and all. Maybe I'll just upgrade what I have.:confused:
 
Yeah looks good but I found a similar deal on one with all the features I would want on an AR. I just have to convince myself that's what I want most. Just not sure I want to play barbie all that much. Kinda leaning towards an AK but whose got good ones at my price range? I wanna know all my options here.
 
about 2 years ago now the SGL-21 (arsenal) was going for 699. There's an outside chance you could find one used in good shape with some online searching. Other than that I have had good luck with Saiga 308's and 5.45 rifles (1.75 to 2.5 moa). Ammo is less expensive. The thing I like about an AR type is the solid top mounting surface for optics.
 
A WASR-10 or similar AK is just fine for a battle rifle, though not a "sniper". They can be had for under $500. Another great option is converting a Saiga sporter yourself. You can get it in 5.45, 7.62x39, 5.56/.223, or .308 as well. $400 for the gun, under $150 for all needed parts. My brother converted his in just 2 days, a few hours.

For an AR, you can get a S&W M&P-15 Sport for $650 or so. Good basic AR.

Other lower cost options include the Ruger Mini-14 $650-750, or Kel-Tec Su-16 for $500-$600. Check 'em out!
 
There's always the mini-14 and 30's in your price range. Not sure what CMP has the Garand's going for these days but that's another option. Also, might find a good used M1 carbine.
 
Are there quality AK's out there for less than the Arsenals?
Click to expand...

Sure, a number of them, if buy quality you mean reliable and reasonably accurate. There are a few options. I will say AK prices seem to be up across the board. Its not really tghe best time to be buying an AK. I also think one can get more value per dollar in the AR world right now. If I were looking for a non arsenal I'd give at least the following guns a look.

First Saigas

Many of the arsenal models are just saigas they have done a pistol grip conversion on and put traditional AK furniture and muzzle devices on. The important parts of the gun, at least in terms of how it functions and shoots, are the same Russian parts as a saiga. Even if one is after a traditional looking AK one can get a saiga with a traditional front end and do the back half on his or her own. That gun is like $450 and will take maybe another $150 give or tack to finish it.

The M110s are Romanian guns that seem to get good reviews. My experience with Romanian guns is they are not as nice as saigas but they are still AK reliable and reasonably accurate.

AMD-65s: These are the cheapest AKs I see out right now. They are around $450. They are good guns. The have a different style handguard and a wire folder stock. I'm not a fan of wire folders, as they offer no cheek weld. One can get a piece added to help with that issue but it's still not my favorite stock. The other thing about the AMD is the shorter barrel with the permanently attached brake. This makes them loud, with a fair amount of flash and blast.

My personal choice is saigas that I work on my self. However, I don't want a traditional looking AK I want one built to best suit my uses. For that I think the saiga is the best platform. I also bought mine well before they were $400 or even $300 dollar guns.

When buying an AK I think there are a few questions to answer:

Do I want a traditional looking AK? Do you have a preference for a particular variant?

Realistically how are you going to use it?

What features do you want?

What are you willing to spend?
 
Look into the FNAR. Shoots a .308 and FNH guarantees sub MOA out of the box. You'll need a scope for it though. You can find one used for about 850$ ImageUploadedByTapatalk1349680577.767081.jpg

Also, for a good AK in your price range, look at the Zastava Pap m70. They're made in Serbia (very good build) and sent to century arms in America where they widen the mag well to fit 30 round magazines. Century doesn't build the AK itself, so it is quality and quite accurate for an AK.
 
I'm in the Saiga camp. I think you'll be getting the best bang for your buck... literally. As mentioned, when you convert yourself you can customize the rifle somewhat, and drop a bit on some nice extras, like hogue grips, or something I tried and liked, a JTE mainspring. Conversion parts will add about 100-150$ to the cost of the rifle, but you'll still have some extra cash from your budget you can spend on stuff like a side rail and a decent red dot, or just mags and ammo.

You can also do the AR assembly thing if you change your mind about what you're interested in-- put together a lower and buy yourself an upper. It'll probably cost a little more, but you should still be well within the budget you set for yourself. The good thing about that option is that you can get other uppers in other calibers down the line if you want.
 
Many of the arsenal models are just saigas they have done a pistol grip conversion on and put traditional AK furniture and muzzle devices on. The important parts of the gun, at least in terms of how it functions and shoots, are the same Russian parts as a saiga. Even if one is after a traditional looking AK one can get a saiga with a traditional front end and do the back half on his or her own. That gun is like $450 and will take maybe another $150 give or tack to finish it.
Click to expand...

This is good information. I'm gonna take some time later tonight and look into it. Is the conversion very difficult? What is involved? I don't want to get into what amounts to a rifle build, I've done that already. If it's merely adding and subtracting parts that's cool but I don't need a big project.

Do I want a traditional looking AK? Do you have a preference for a particular variant?

Realistically how are you going to use it?
Click to expand...

If I went this route, traditional, sort of. I kind of want the 5.45. I would like to be able to put a rail up front for a red dot so I don't really want the funny looking Saiga handguards but rather something standard so I can do that. Or can you with the saiga handguards? I guess I don't even know all my options here. I have not spent much time looking into AK stuff.

The gun will be a truck gun, a gun my son and wife can shoot, and something I don't have to reload for if possible. I'd like to just shoot steel cased. I reload other calibers and to be honest I don't want the expense and hassle of reloading one more.

I just know if I go the AR route I'll have a million bucks into it before it's over with all the fine accessories and such available. In a way, it's tempting. I have a week or so to think it over I guess.

I also found a company called Waffen Werks that makes an AK that is within my range. Are they any good? Any other companies I can get a turnkey rifle from?

Look into the FNAR. Shoots a .308 and FNH guarantees sub MOA out of the box. You'll need a scope for it though. You can find one used for about 850$
Click to expand...

Nice gun. 'Cept I already got a FAL and by the looks of the youtube video that thing is a royal pain to take down and mags are crazy priced. Whatever I get will have ten mags to go with it so this is out of the question.
 
Conversion is easy, hardest part is drilling out a couple rivets. Carolina shooters supply and youtube have videos on it. Well, you do need to drill and tap a hole if you want to use AK mags. Not a huge deal as long as you're careful.

They sell replacement handguards with rails. Saigas also come with standard AK side rail mounts. They do put the scopes kind of high, though.

Actually, you might or might not have to drill and tap a hole for the bullet guide, if I remember right. Standard ak-74 mags sometimes work fine in 5.45 Saigas. I think its hit or miss, though.
 
Another vote for buying a SAIGA and converting it yourself.

It'll allow you to spread the expenses out over a few paychecks too; buy gun and wait a bit, pick up conversion parts, convert, start buying magazines and ammo as your budget allows.

If you're not all hung up on 1MOA accuracy I think you should also consider the FN FAL.
 
Well just an idea on my part; "What is the range of your intended shooting"?

" How old are you and do you wear glasses"?

AKs have jumped almost $200 (or more) around here even for the cheap ones.

Kinda like you I was never yearning for the AR or AK until I actually went out and bought one. Both are great and have many useful purposes. No one rifle will do everything so my recommendation is make a list of what you want to do with the weapon (s) and see which one covers the most bases. Centerfire systems has ARs for $659 and AKs for $478.99 VZ2008 and others. I hunt and 99% of the time I grab an AR due to optics and accuracy at range but part of that is due to ammo used. Good luck on whatever you decide both are great rifles.
 
On the subject of M4s... If a company came out with a reliable, durable, piston driven M4 that was battlefield accurate beyond 300 yards, could be bought in a dozen places without waiting and comes from the factory setup for both iron sights and optics... all for $700... people would go nuts over it. If you told them it was made by Ruger, has a different action and is called a Mini 14 they would form an angry mob to kill you. Once they learned that it takes a different kind of magazine, well...

I joke of course but Minis are good rifles, can be bought anywhere, and have a company with a service department to stand behind them.
 
Is the conversion very difficult?
Click to expand...

This depends on what one means by "conversion." I take that term to mean pistol grip conversion, or doing the work on the rear end of the rifle, i.e. moving the fire control group, adding a pistol grip, adding an AK Stock, painting some bare metal, and most often for 7.62x39 making the gun work with standard magazines.

That part is, IMHO, very easy. I work in an office, I don't consider my self particularly handy. However, I can read and watch videos and often figure things out. If you can drill a straight hole and turn a screw driver the above work should be well with in you means. Certain tools, such as a drill press and a dremel will make the work easier. However, it certainly can be done without those.

If you plan to thread the barrel that is not a difficult task either in my estimation. It does require the right tools which cost about 50 dollars (CNC warrior carries them).

If you want to change things on the front end of the gun it can be slightly more difficult. Things like the sight and gas block need to be pressed off. It can be done without a press.

You can do a lot of things that require more or less skill when working on a saiga. However, getting the gun in a very serviceable configuration is within the means of the vast majority of people. You'd almost have to try to screw up most of the work.

I would like to be able to put a rail up front for a red dot so I don't really want the funny looking Saiga handguards but rather something standard so I can do that. Or can you with the saiga handguards? I guess I don't even know all my options here. I have not spent much time looking into AK stuff.
Click to expand...

I'll write some more on this and try to detail some of the options and whats involved. I just don't have time right now to do it justice.

What are the veprs going for nowa days? if it is in your price range that would be another option.
Click to expand...

Veprs have actually dropped, a lot. They can be had for about $100 more than saigas if you look in the right places. Centerfire systems had them at $499. Many models have sold out since that price decrease. A vepr would be a very good basis for outfitting a gun to your requirements. Like a saiga there are 922r concerns and you need to modify it to work with standard mags. Depending on what one is going to do I could argue for either the Vepr or the Saiga as a more sensical starting point. Veprs are nice guns, now that prices have dropped on many models (at the same time so many other AKs are going up) they are an attractive option.

Personally I would be very interest in a 16" barrel type II vepr with the front sight integrated into the gas block. People pay big bucks to retrofit guns with that. A stock adapter for the slant cut receiver and a stock I like. Swap the hand guard to something more conducive to my uses, add a muzzle device, and mount an aimpoint micro. Swap in a US made FCG and mod the gun to take standard AK mags. That would be an AK that I'd be very happy to own.
 
I'm gonna come out of left field here and suggest an SKS. They are exceptionally reliable rifles with better accuracy than AK's. The only thing you might want for is a large detachable mag but the truth is that stripper clips are a much better way to carry extra ammo. You don't have to carry the weight of the extra mags, just the ammo. The clips load very quickly with some practice and losing one is no big deal. Losing a mag is a big deal.

I've owned AK's and I shot them side by side with my SKS and in almost every way the SKS was a better rifle. I'm talking more reliable, more accurate and more durable. I'll never go back to AK's. In particular the Norinco SKS is a great rifle. The Russian models are also great. Yugos shoot great but have the extra weight of the grenade launchers.

And the best part is the price. I bought a Yugo for right at $250 about 18 months ago. It was still packed in cosmoline meaning it had been stored since the Yugoslavian military got done using them. It had barely been fired at all in fact. That's a whole lot less money than even an AK.

I won't say that the Saiga's etc. aren't great rifles. They are. But they aren't as cheap as the SKS and IMO the SKS is every bit as good if not better. I've had a Norinco for 20 years and other than some problems with bad ammo I've almost never had a problem. In fact I don't think I've ever had a problem that wasn't caused by bad ammo. That's an incredible record for a semi-auto. I even converted my Norinco (the old one I have) to box mags the first day I bought it. They have always worked perfectly for me. My Yugo is still in stock format because people convinced me that stripper clips were a better way to go.
 
I'm gonna come out of left field here and suggest an SKS. They are exceptionally reliable rifles with better accuracy than AK's. The only thing you might want for is a large detachable mag but the truth is that stripper clips are a much better way to carry extra ammo. You don't have to carry the weight of the extra mags, just the ammo. The clips load very quickly with some practice and losing one is no big deal. Losing a mag is a big deal.

I've owned AK's and I shot them side by side with my SKS and in almost every way the SKS was a better rifle. I'm talking more reliable, more accurate and more durable. I'll never go back to AK's. In particular the Norinco SKS is a great rifle. The Russian models are also great. Yugos shoot great but have the extra weight of the grenade launchers.

And the best part is the price. I bought a Yugo for right at $250 about 18 months ago. It was still packed in cosmoline meaning it had been stored since the Yugoslavian military got done using them. It had barely been fired at all in fact. That's a whole lot less money than even an AK.

I won't say that the Saiga's etc. aren't great rifles. They are. But they aren't as cheap as the SKS and IMO the SKS is every bit as good if not better. I've had a Norinco for 20 years and other than some problems with bad ammo I've almost never had a problem. In fact I don't think I've ever had a problem that wasn't caused by bad ammo. That's an incredible record for a semi-auto. I even converted my Norinco (the old one I have) to box mags the first day I bought it. They have always worked perfectly for me. My Yugo is still in stock format because people convinced me that stripper clips were a better way to go.
Click to expand...

I started to bring that up myself....If he is old and wants glass I would do the AR no questions asked, but, it is a personal kinda thing.
 
If he is old and wants glass I would do the AR no questions asked
Click to expand...

+1 on that. There's no mounting a scope on a AK or an SKS. Some of the other stuff around might be different I guess.
 
"What is the range of your intended shooting"?
Click to expand...

300 yards absolute maximum.

How old are you and do you wear glasses
Click to expand...

30's. No glasses. I don't really have a desire for a scope. Irons and a red dot will suffice me just fine for this particular gun. On an AR maybe a red dot with a magnifier.

I'll write some more on this and try to detail some of the options and whats involved. I just don't have time right now to do it justice.
Click to expand...

I really appreciate the info Girodin. It was nice of you to type it all out but I think I'll pass on the Saiga. I went the DIY route last time around, building from a kit and I just don't want to spend the time to do it I don't think. It sounded kind of interesting but when you mentioned a $50 tool to thread the barrel for a FH I just started thinking I would pass. I'm fairly handy, I just don't want to get into it that far and on top of it I'd need to deal with the handguards situation cause I'd like a little rail up front.

I'm gonna come out of left field here and suggest an SKS.
Click to expand...

I thought about those too on account of the low cost, they would make a good truck gun. I'm pretty set on using a detachable magazine fed weapon though. I'll have at least ten or fifteen mags for whatever I get. I can't explain exactly why, I'd just like an AK or AR more than an SKS.

As for the VEPR suggestions other people made I'm not interested due to the proprietary mags.

If you're not all hung up on 1MOA accuracy I think you should also consider the FN FAL.
Click to expand...

I have a nice Para here at home. It will always be my favorite autoloader, hands down. I just can't afford another one. I just want to find a rifle I can get as excited about as that one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

K
  • Locked
A new AK
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
dstorm1911
D
J
  • Locked
Buying my first semi-automatic rifle, I ask your advice.
2
Replies
49
Views
2K
Maverick223
Maverick223
C
  • Locked
Kalashnikopy--For Want of an AK
Replies
15
Views
813
clange
C
S
  • Locked
WASR-2 v.s. Arsenal SAM-5 v.s. AK-105?
Replies
10
Views
2K
ShootAndHunt
S
J
  • Locked
Cheap 5.45x39 AK
Replies
16
Views
905
MechAg94
M
Back
Top