Want to buy a M4 style gun ... election pre-ban jitters...

[wacki]

I don't own any scary black rifles and I'd like to get one before something like HR1022 gets critical mass.

Basically I am investigating 5.56 carbine/M4 style weapons. If kits are available then I'm willing to assemble it. I have a sub MOA bolt action .308 as a tack driver and a shotgun. Now it's time for me to get a CQB/SHTF rifle.

I don't really have a budget. I'd rather spend $1,000 and have two $500 sub MOA Savage 10FP's than spend $700 on a Remington 700 of similar performance characteristics. I can easily drop $1K on a M4 style carbine. I'd just prefer to have a quality gun for a reasonable price. I'll spend the extra cash on boolits, mags, etc or even a clone of the same gun.

I'm willing to construct something from a kit or something to go. Right now this is topping my list:
http://www.del-ton.com/Rifle_Kit_p/rkt100.htm

But I'll be honest. I don't know squat about M4 brands. Any advice?

 

[janobles14]

just bought a bushmaster post ban M4 and love it! cant believe i ever hesitated before. got a great deal on it for $750 NIB but i would have paid $1000 knowing what i know now.

every bit as good as a colt but dont have to pay for the expensive rocking horse.

 

[Gord]

I'm going with a Del-Ton kit, too, due to funds (already bought a Yugo underfolder and converted a Saiga, so my AK needs are met - but it took a good chunk of money out of the EBR budget to do so). Just be aware that Del-Ton is generally regarded in the low-midgrade range as far as ARs go. Colt, Noveske and LMT seem to be the pinnacle of ARs by contemporary opinion.

I couldn't tell you what that actually means, since no one seems to have ever actually taken a Del-Ton to a carbine class or a three-gun match, so in the absence of any evidence to the contrary I'm going to assume that they're "good enough."

If money's no object, though, no one seems to have bad things to say about LMTs.

 

[wacki]

Tactical Ninja,

What stripped lower are you getting? I assume I get a Del-Ton upper kit and a stripped lower and I'm set? Just two purchases?

 

[wacki]

every bit as good as a colt but dont have to pay for the expensive rocking horse.

Rocking horse? You mean the bolt?

 

[7.62shooter]

The best thing you could do is head over to M4carbine.net. Its the BEST site regarding the black rifle. Lots of military and law enforcement professionals as well as manufacturers. As far as your question the top m4 rifles right now are Colt 6920-$12-1400, Noveske N4 light reece-$1450, Lewis Machine and Tool-$1250, and BCM. BCM only builds uppers and bolts, etc. One of the best thnigs now is to combine a BCM upper with a Lewis Machine and Tool lower. A superub match and it makes one HELL of a fighting rifle. These are all military grade and strenuously tested. They have alot higher tolerances then bushmaster, dpms...etc. As far as builing one all you need to do is get a complete lower, complete upper, hanguards, bolt carrier group and iron sight or an optic. Check out GandRtactical.com and Bravocompanyusa.com. These companies are top of the line and will take care of you... I would skip the Delton build by the way. I hope this helps and good luck in your quest!

 

[Gord]

Wacki,

Yeah. The rifle kits are a complete upper reciver, and a lower parts kit (LPK). You buy a stripped lower receiver, which is the serialized "firearm" part of the equation, build that up with the lower parts kit, and then snap the upper and lower receivers together. Presto, done.

As for stripped lowers, they generally run around $100-120 and they're all pretty much the same; buy whatever brand has the coolest-looking logo on it, or whatever your local shop has in stock (but stay away from Vulcan/Hesse - applies to any firearm, not just ARs ). Mine has been getting Aero Precision lowers in every now and then, so that's what I'll be going with. They look really nice to me as far as machining goes, and I prefer the bullet markings over fire/safe markings.

Midlength gas systems are generally considered to be more reliable than M4-length gas systems in 16" barrels, so I'm going with the midlength kit. I think the M4 barrel profile and the length of the barrel past the front sight base look goofy, anyway. Not gonna be mounting a grenade launcher anytime soon...

Rocking horse? You mean the bolt?

He means the Colt "rampant pony" logo:

 

[7.62shooter]

O and as far as bushmaster being just as good as colt without the horse... Thats BS. I thought that too when i first got into black rifles. Now i am not knocking bushmaster AT ALL. I have one and it is great. Dead accurate and never failed on me. That being said bushmaster and alot of other companies dont go through alot of the processes that COLT, noveske, LMT and BCM do. Bushmaster does not properly stake the gas key, if at all. Bushmaster does not stake the castle nut either. Of course these are easily fixable but the extra you pay for COLT or any of the other mentioned brands is WELL worth the money. Go to this link and check out the thread listed on this page. It well help point you in the right ditection. http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7355

 

[janobles14]

wow thats some in depth stuff!

but if one rifle fires as well, lasts as long, and is just as accurate then why not get it if its less?

 

[Gord]

then why not get it if its less?

You're paying for the extra margin in reliability. Lower-cost manufacturers cut certain processes out (like staking the gas key or magnetically inspecting the barrel and/or bolt), which may or may not result in that gun failing under stress more quickly or more easily than one made by a different manufacturer that didn't cut those processes.

I'm sure someone will post "the chart" soon enough.

 

[7.62shooter]

You make a good point, but this is where you have to decide what you will be using the rifle for. Yes my bushmaster shoots just as well as my BCM/LMT build but as far as lasting as long i do not think so. But it depends on the situation.. If i were a casual shooter that enjoys goin to the range and did not compete or run my rifle hard or put it in adverse conditions the Bushmaster would be fine. But if i were a soldier, or contractor etc and my life depended on my rifle i would definatly fork out the extra for one of the other brands. As i said there is alot more that goes into these rifles from proper staking to barrel steel hardness etc. You got a great deal on your Bushmaster for 750. Mine was 850 out the door. I do plan to upgrade my bushmaster Bolt carrier group to a BCM one because the bolt is the most likely thing to fail. Sorry to ramble on and again I AM NOT dissing anybodies rifles. Im just trying to give the best info i can. So to recap if you plan to use your rifle for range work, plinking, etc. and you can get a bushmaster around the 800 dollar range go for it. But most new bushasters cost about 1000. For just a bit more you can get one of the other rifles. So if your rifle will be run hard(competion, training, etc.) or if your life of the lives or your loved one may depend on it, price should be the last thing on your mind.

 

[wacki]

Tactical Ninja,

Thanks for all the info. You've been a great help. You stated this:

Midlength gas systems are generally considered to be more reliable than M4-length gas systems in 16" barrels, so I'm going with the midlength kit.

So what you are saying is that of these choices:

http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Rifle_Kits_16_s/57.htm

The most reliable option is the bottom one:

http://www.del-ton.com/Rifle_Kit_p/rkt104.htm

??????

All the barrels seem to be the same length. 16"

Your reliability comments have me wondering if I should upgrade to a LMT.

7.62shooter, thankyou for the links. Looks like I will be doing lots of reading over the next few days.

 

[maniak]

Ptr 91 kfm4

an M4 configuration in .308 and w/out direct-gas impingement.
suits the budget.
cheap mags.
well made.
fun to shoot.
black.
http://www.ptr91.com/product_pages/ptr91kfm4.html
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/beta/storeproduct462.aspx

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

I wouldn't buy a cheap AR15. You would likely have to spend close to $750-800 to have a halfway decent AR15.

 

[Gord]

wacki,

I don't know just how much "more" reliable a midlength gas system is over an M4 length, but that is the conventional wisdom. I'm sure there are tens of thousands of people out there with M4-length systems that run just fine.

As for Del-Ton vs. LMT, etc., that all depends on your current needs, your perceived needs and your budget. The usual line is thus: if you're planning to use your AR for plinking, hunting or other general "light duty" use, you should be good to go with pretty much any manufacturer out there. If you're planning to shoot three-gun matches, take it to carbine courses and otherwise beat the crap out of it and push it to the limit, you'd be better served spending the extra money on a "known good" brand like LMT, Noveske, Colt, etcetera - assuming you have the budget.

I'm no expert on ARs; I don't own one yet, and I've not even shot one before. All I know is what I've read and learned, so take it for what it's worth - I'm not speaking from experience, I'm just "passing it on."

Del-Ton has a great reputation and by all accounts everyone who owns one is more than happy with it. It will be reliable and accurate; I just wouldn't consider them "infantry-grade." Whether or not that matters to you for your purposes is for you to decide.

an M4 configuration in .308 and w/out direct-gas impingement.

Dude, it's just an HK91 with a six-pos buttstock bolted on. There's nothing "M4" about it.

 

[RP88]

my Del-Ton build runs great. 400 rounds with very few problems. After sighting it in, I put a target at 25 yds, and had no problem putting a whole box through the bullseye. Mine also eats Wolf without a problem.

Del-Ton is great on a budget with easy customization and such, but if you want as close to milspec as possible as well as a rifle that will hold its value, Colt, LMT, and Nov are your top three by name.

 

[wacki]

I wouldn't buy a cheap AR15. You would likely have to spend close to $750-800 to have a halfway decent AR15.

If I have to drop $1K then I will drop $1K. My whole point is I don't mind having a millennium falcon style gun. Star wars movie quote: "that rusty bucket of bolts... she ain't pretty... but she [is the fastest ship in the fleet]"

I own a Savage 10FP. I can't brag about the name but it shoots sub MOA and I have no reservations in taking my rifle up against any other mass production rifle out there. The money I saved goes into other gun goodies.

I'd prefer to buy my carbine with a similar mentality.


That being said my priorities are:
Reliaibilty - High
Accuracy - I have a sniper rifle. If I can hit an apple w/ this CQB at 100 yards I'll be happy.
Price - Cheaper means I can buy more, but I'll spend what it takes.

 

[Al Thompson]

wacki, think about getting a couple or three lowers (the serial numbered part, I.E., the firearm) and assembling them into complete rifles as time allows.

 

[wacki]

Tactical Ninja,

Just got back from the gun show where I bought an unbadged LMT upper kit. Some guy was selling them third party and told me to call up the factory and verify it's validity. He told me if I wasn't satisfied after calling LMT I could return it. It took it home for $500.

 

[SamG.]

Nice buy! Do you have any idea on what kind of lower you want for it?

 

[ugaarguy]

Wacki, did your upper group come with the bolt carrier group? Make sure the bolt is marked "MP", and that the barrel is marked "MP 5.56 NATO 1/7 CB". If that's all there it sounds like you got a great buy on your upper.

 

[Gord]

Just got back from the gun show where I bought an unbadged LMT upper kit. Some guy was selling them third party and told me to call up the factory and verify it's validity. He told me if I wasn't satisfied after calling LMT I could return it. It took it home for $500.

Wacki,

Alarm bells started sounding in my head the moment I read that...
If it includes the bolt carrier group as uga mentioned, and more importantly, if it is indeed an LMT upper, good deal. I wouldn't be so quick to trust some gun-show guy (on either point - that it's an LMT uppe,r or that he'll accept a return) but I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

If it's a kit, i.e. not an assembled upper, you're going to need some tools and know-how to put everything together, and describing those is outside the scope of my AR knowledge.

 

[SpeedAKL]

My Bushmaster runs fine so long as decent ammo is used; then again I have never run it really hard such as taken it to a carbine course. Your AR decision all depends on what features you want and your budget. Most of the well-known brands are reputable, and some of the higher-end shops like Noveske, Sabre, or LWRC are outstanding if you can swing the $$$.

 

[wacki]

Tactical Ninja:

http://www.mapartsinc.com/faq.asp#count_16

That's who i got it from. You tell me if i need to try to return it. I'm still trying to figure out what the difference is.

Alarm bells started sounding in my head the moment I read that...

FYI i agree it wasn't the smartest move and was an impulse buy... that i rarely do. I paid with credit card so hopefully it won't bite e too bad.

 

[journeyman]

I ran small arms repair shops for quite a few years in the Army. The Colt M-16s and M-4s that I worked on were only really Colts until something broke. The repair parts used to fix them came from a wide variety of vendors and seemed to work well for the most part. As long as good quality parts are used and they fit properly and are assembled correctly, an AR should work no matter who makes the parts. As far as AR15/M-4gery rifles go, I own a Colt, 3 DPMS and I recently built a Del-Ton, just for old time's sake. They all work reliably and are all more accurate than I can shoot them. I paid more for the Colt than I did for any of the others, but for GP use, I don't think it is any better than the others. The Army buys it's repair parts from the lowest bidder and they work if assembled and installed properly, so I don't see why that shouldn't work for me too.