Want to defeat anti-gun lawmaker. Need help.

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kannonfyre

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Dear THR friends,

I need your help.

But first, a little background info is in order.......about two months ago, I quit my previous job and landed a post as a research officer for a Member of Parliament (MP) in my country. An MP is analogous to a Congressman in America. Anyway, two days ago, a particularly irritating and “holier than thou” MP with particularly liberal and intrusive state centric tendencies from another district submitted a proposal that a bill for additional gun control measures be tabled in Parliament in 3 weeks time. My country already has tough gun control laws (no CCW, all guns registered, steep licensing fees....etc) and from looking at the proposal that she submitted, she seeks to ban all civilian ownership of handguns, impose ammunition restrictions and other measures which make me want to throw up. Its obvious that she has not done her research (despite being a learned college lecturer) because she ends her proposal by saying that “we must NOT end up like America where rampant ownership of firearms results in catastrophic loss of life through unyielding violence”. My MP boss (he is pro gun ownership) and I share the belief that this anti lawmaker simply wants to be seen to be doing something legislative as she has not proposed any bills in parliament for the last two years (elections are around the corner and she wants to look productive) and her district has seen a 10% increase in gun crime (which has been attributed to weapons smuggled in from abroad).

This morning, my boss set me the task of writing a paper to be submitted to the Speaker of Parliament. As the Speaker has the authority to quash any bill that he deems to be wasteful of parliament’s time, my boss directed me to write a piece about how gun control has not worked in the U.S. and hence will most likely not work in any other country. The anti-gun MP made about half a dozen references to the U.S. in her proposal and my boss sees it fitting that U.S. data be used to debunk her points. Also, he suggested that I use the case of Switzerland as a example of how the large amounts of firearms in civilian hands has not lead to gun crime or social instability.

Essentially, I hope to answer the following questions:

1) Who in American society claims that gun violence is a problem? What segments of society do these people come from?
2) What evidence do these people point to that support their claim of epidemic gun violence? Can it be clearly debunked?
3) What other data and evidence is available which OBJECTIVELY supports or debunks the gun control supporter’s arguments?
4) When did gun control seriously start to arise in the public agenda?
5) Does this point to a change in the social dynamics of American society? (Basically, if we can prove that fear of gun crime is due to greater unfounded paranoia, AND we can draw parallels to local society, we can tell this opposing MP to calm down and shut up.)
6) What exactly is contributing to a greater fear or perception of gun violence in relation to all the other hazards of modern life?

Therefore, it would be good if you guys could point me in the direction of any objective a) mass media articles, b) statistical data, c) authoritative books and d) articles from professional journals that support the stand that gun violence isn’t really that huge a problem and that gun control is effectively useless. Also, any authoritative material, books or statistics about gun ownership and the low level of gun violence in Switzerland would be appreciated.

Many thanks!
 
Here is an article on the mess GB has made for themselves:

Gun Control's Twisted Outcome - Restricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S.
By Joyce Lee Malcolm from the November 2002 issue of Reason
http://reason.com/archives/2002/11/01/gun-controls-twisted-outcome


There is an enormous amount of relevant info here:
http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/4.2/GunFacts4-2-Screen.pdf


Including this by Kleck & Gertz:
Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun
http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html


This article:
A World Without Guns Be forewarned: It’s not a pretty picture
By Dave Kopel, Paul Gallant, and Joanne Eisen of the Independence Institute
http://old.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel120501.shtml


I hope these are of some help. What country are you in?
 
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My country already has tough gun control laws (no CCW, all guns registered, steep licensing fees....etc) and from looking at the proposal that she submitted, she seeks to ban all civilian ownership of handguns

I was under the impression that Singapore already has banned handguns for civilian use and you can only own a shotgun there. Semi-auto is also banned, no. :confused:
 
He has a well-researched, insightful and logical report...and trashes it all to heck in the last two paragraphs. Epic Fail, and the sad paradox of a majority of gun owners.

I'm curious...What do you find in the following paragraphs that trashes his own thesis and can be characterized as "Epic Fail, and the sad paradox of a majority of gun owners"?


Instead of imagining a world without a particular technology, what about imagining a world in which the human heart grows gentler, and people treat each other decently? This is part of the vision of many of the world's great religions. Although we have a long way to go, there is no denying that hundreds of millions of lives have changed for the better because people came to believe what these religions teach.

If a truly peaceful world is attainable — or, even if unattainable, worth striving for — there is nothing to be gained from the futile attempt to eliminate all guns. A more worthwhile result can flow from the changing of human hearts, one soul at a time.

And let us attempt to keep this from becoming an "epic" threadjack.
 
These people live on another planet.I knew what guns were for in the Uk,when I was 8 years old&I knew they weren't used for robbing people or shooting people,under the licensing conditions.The anti gunners trick people with anti-gun propaganda& claim that this is the wishes of the people,when people sign petitions against handgun ownership.Thats easy,target the council estate single moms& victims of gang violence,to add to the anti-cause.
 
this could be useful to show how firearm ownership in America has saves lives on a regular basis and maybe a good point to include

http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/


that national view article does get a little cheesy at the end but the rest of it is very good
 
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...that national view article does get a little cheesy at the end...


The way I read it...they were simply summarizing the article by pointing out that banning guns will never reduce criminal violence - as long as there are people amongst us who would commit criminal violence. Changing the hearts and minds of violent criminals is the ONLY possible solution - and they made no claim that such a solution was even possible.
 
To Lykoris,

Nope, handguns are still available for civilian ownership and semi-auto shotguns are also OK. The issue is that every firearm needs a license and the issuing authority goes through your record with a fine tooth comb before signing off on your application.

What this anti seeks to do is effectively kill the civilian IPSC/IDPA shooting population here by limiting us to shotguns only and even then making ammo even more expensive by limiting the amount that we can buy per month. This means that gun shops will not have the incentive to stock shotgun ammo in large amounts, leading to loss of economies of scale and ever higher retail prices.

To everyone:

Can anyone point me in the direction of reputable literature that can help me answer questions 1), 2), 4) and 5) in my original post?
 
kannonfyre:
1 & 2) http://www.bradycampaign.org/
http://www.vpc.org/
Most of their arguments can be debunked fairly easily based on the information in the links that have been posted above (definitely, the link I posted covers all the major arguments)

The thing is, in the United States, the banning of firearms has always been a top-down effort. The number of Americans who are for further gun restrictions are a minority (I believe, according to polls it's 20-25% of Americans). In fact, a very big chunk of said 20-25% Americans probably don't really care about the issue but have an opinion on it because it is the rhetoric of the party they support. I was talking to two of my friends from NYC just yesterday, both of whom professed to be strongly anti-gun. I had them on the fence within 30 minutes (and I invited them to visit my place so I can drag them the rest of the way :evil::evil::evil:).

Sorry, you're looking for studies and scientific papers, not my own personal observations. Hopefully, the two websites I listed above will help you understand the anti-gun argument in the US.

4) Gun control has been on the public agenda here since the 30s and the NFA. It didn't really get ridiculous until the late-70s, early-80s, when most localities began either creating broad concealed carry laws or banning firearms. That's when you got gun bans such as DC or Chicago and concealed carry laws such as Florida's. Today, all of the places that ban guns have substantially higher crime rates than the places that did the opposite. This all came to a head in the 90s with the AWB and the subsequent loss that the Democratic party suffered in Senate elections due to their anti-gun legislation.
5) As I said above, the gun control thing has always been a top-down issue in the United States (where is it not?) The dynamics of American society have changed only in that Americans are now very sensitized to the issue of gun control and prepared to fight it by all means necessary (most importantly, at the ballot box)

Editted: Ah, I see pty has beat me to it!
 
They don't want to turn out like America huh? Maybe they'll want to turn out like Venezuela and Brazil. They have gun bans, but their murder rates are higher then that of the US.
 
rainbowbob wrote:
Quote:
He has a well-researched, insightful and logical report...and trashes it all to heck in the last two paragraphs. Epic Fail, and the sad paradox of a majority of gun owners.
I'm curious...What do you find in the following paragraphs that trashes his own thesis and can be characterized as "Epic Fail, and the sad paradox of a majority of gun owners"?


Quote:
Instead of imagining a world without a particular technology, what about imagining a world in which the human heart grows gentler, and people treat each other decently? This is part of the vision of many of the world's great religions. Although we have a long way to go, there is no denying that hundreds of millions of lives have changed for the better because people came to believe what these religions teach.

If a truly peaceful world is attainable — or, even if unattainable, worth striving for — there is nothing to be gained from the futile attempt to eliminate all guns. A more worthwhile result can flow from the changing of human hearts, one soul at a time.
And let us attempt to keep this from becoming an "epic" threadjack.

The paradox I was referring to is that most gun owners claim to support logical thinking and denounce the kind of emotional thinking we accuse leftists of. And most gun owners are devoutly religious. The author said that religion was the key to reducing violence, when clearly, religion has caused the most death in history. The Crusades, The Holocaust, 9/11. Just a few examples of mass murder in the name of one's deity. I'm just saying that that article only serves to make most gun owners feel good and is of no argumentative use. A liberal/leftist will read that article, and those last two paragraphs will completely destroy it's credibility in the eyes of the leftist/liberal reader.
 
Maybe you could mention that in 1960 the murder rate and violent crime rates were lower when gun laws were looser.

Also the violent crime rate is nearly 3 times higher now than in 1960, but that's not because of loose gun laws.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm


Another point is that the places with the most gun crime have the most criminals, not the most gun owners. These places tend to have significant gang presence, probably more so than in your country.
 
The role of anti-gun groups

A few more questions.....

1)exactly how influential or effective are gun control advocacy groups in the US? If we disregard the effective opposition of the GOA and NRA, does the former actually have any influence in Washington?

Can you guys point me in the directions of reputable articles that either support or dismiss the power wielded by the VPC or other groups?

2)Additionally, who funds all these gun control efforts? Please point me towards reliable print or internet evidence.

3)As for gun control pushing politicians like D. Feinstein, H. Clinton and their ilk, to what extent are the "true believers" who desire to kill gun rights? or are they merely opportunists who would actually push gun rights if the entire NRA swore to vote for them?
 
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It's funny

Canadians don't like the gun laws in the USA, but when they go to Florida and get that good old USA drivers license with a US address(winter home) they pick up a concealed firearms permit. During my time with a federal agency I had discovered this many times when doing routine checks. Legal ? depended what status they were claiming and it was a grey area. It should be presented how many have ccw when they are spending the winter in the US.
 
Generalizing: The GOA comes in with a "Take no prisoners" attitude, which then makes the NRA lobbyists appear more gentlemanly and logical. Always remember the size of the egos of Congressfolks; they love being stroked.

The anti-gun groups hide their funding as much as possible. I'm not sure how one would prove that George Soros is behind which group, for example, but his own publicly-stated views support the allegations that he's generous. And, it's fairly well-known that the anti-gun groups have few truly active members; small core groups generate the publicity. When possible, check out the names of the members of Boards of Directors as to their own associations.

The true believers are a mixed group. Some indeed are true; others are watching the polls in their areas. Probably the best way to judge is to watch the ratings of groups like state rifle clubs as well as the NRA and other national organizations. They look at voting records as well as the answer to questionnaires sent out during election campaigns.
 
Result

Hey Guys,

Update time! I submitted the completed paper to my boss yesterday. He skimmed through it, signed off on it and it was immediately dispatched to the speaker of parliament's office. This afternoon, about a hour before quitting time, a fax came in bearing the speaker's signature informing us that he dismissed the anti-gun MP's proposal for additional gun control restrictions to be discussed in parliament.

VICTORY!!!!! :D :) :D
 
What this anti seeks to do is effectively kill the civilian IPSC/IDPA shooting population here by limiting us to shotguns only and even then making ammo even more expensive by limiting the amount that we can buy per month. This means that gun shops will not have the incentive to stock shotgun ammo in large amounts, leading to loss of economies of scale and ever higher retail prices.
The scary thing is that the British Gun Control Network,has already done some of this,by their constant,fanatical,activism.They are already seeking to destroy ISSF shooting completely,by saying that It should be banned from the Olympic games.Who are they to tell us what to do?Gill Marshall-Andrews,Rebecca Peters&Sarah Brady are three women,I'd certainly flame-grill,as they are hypocritical bigots.
 
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