Wanting a Katana, but needing a prybar

[scythefwd]

Lead.. before you say it isnt worth 500.. go attempt to grind a tanto... Even if you do a mono temper through out... Then you might understand the amount of work that goes into it.

 

[hso]

He isn't going to learn to grind or forge and he really isn't interested in understanding. Those of us that have handled them and have learned to appreciate what's involved can talk until we're blue in the face and it still won't matter.

 

[leadcounsel]

I like swords and all...

But I much prefer guns, especially since (illogical as it is) money goes much further on guns than swords. Just bought a WWII era Spanish Star pistol today for a meager $210... apparently you can't even buy a sheath to magical ninja sword for that price.. :banghead: I can't imagine what a sharp piece of steel from 1944 would cost...

I do appreciate the advice folks are offering... it just feels like being sold on a BMW when I really just need a Toyota...

 

[hso]

You're insisting on a Yugo and we're telling you to upgrade to a Toyota. You can also go "Lexus", but the ratios of prices we're talking about are just about one and a half more than your $200-$300 starting point. If you want to drop $1,000 you can. If you want to drop $15,000 you can (that's what my Louis Mills tachi is valued at). OTOH, you can get a trustworthy cutting katana for under $500 if you take the time to hunt around.

In addition to the advice on materials and construction you need to handle swords to feel the difference in them instead of just working without a basis for an opinion on what they should cost.

 

[scythefwd]

Lead... The practical and the cheness I listed are both sub 300... And the can actually do some cutting. That said, they are far from quality pieces... But they're the bottom of the bucket for functional blades.

 

[leadcounsel]

You're insisting on a Yugo and we're telling you to upgrade to a Toyota. You can also go "Lexus", but the ratios of prices we're talking about are just about one and a half more than your $200-$300 starting point. If you want to drop $1,000 you can. If you want to drop $15,000 you can (that's what my Louis Mills tachi is valued at). OTOH, you can get a trustworthy cutting katana for under $500 if you take the time to hunt around.

In addition to the advice on materials and construction you need to handle swords to feel the difference in them instead of just working without a basis for an opinion on what they should cost.

I am listening, but seem to get a lot of different viewpoints (which is good).

Appreciate and digesting everybody's input, even if I'm reluctant to accept it. Perhaps this is going to be more expensive than I had anticipated.

The practical and the cheness I listed are both sub 300... And the can actually do some cutting. That said, they are far from quality pieces... But they're the bottom of the bucket for functional blades.

Perhaps not.

 

[hso]

Perhaps not.

You still won't listen.

Those are the lowest priced cutting swords out there, but others have said they're not up to snuff and you need to go higher to get an acceptable cutting sword. Pretty much everyone that has said one of the other of these things has actually handled more than a couple of cutting swords and have actually been taught to cut with them. None of the folks that have said cheaper swords would do have the same experience or training or practice.

You can get in at the upper end of the price point you want with particular products identified by the particular makers. You can't get in for lower and have a safe cutting sword.

 

[scythefwd]

I think we need to define what he is trying to cut before we say the blade isnt up to snuff. Is he trying to cut 4" bamboo, 8" rittan mats, or is he goign for 1/2" saplings?

 

[tomrkba]

I think we need to define what he is trying to cut before we say the blade isnt up to snuff. Is he trying to cut 4" bamboo, 8" rittan mats, or is he goign for 1/2" saplings?

This is very simple. Tatami mats are the typical standard and they are not hard targets at all. Swords have broken on them (we roll them to around 4" in diameter). In class, one cheap Windlas European longsword's pommel broke where the tang met the screw threads. Only the user's alertness prevented the blade from flying across the room. Any quality sword should be able to handle the targets listed (assuming a proficient user making a good cut). In other words, a quality sword will be able to handle cloth covered human flesh (*properly sharpened* katanas absolutely destroy "jack armor"--10, 20 or 30 layers of linen). The blade may be notched in the bind or upon hitting a shield, but it should not take a set or show signs of stress in the metal around the notch.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131

 

[scythefwd]

I think you hit it on the head. Making a proper cut.. a lot of newbies dont know how to do that.. and they do more of a hack vs. a pull through cut. I know my wakisashi has some nicks in the blade I had to stone out from improper form. I only use it though when I cant get a good cut with the kukri.. which really is a hand ax lol.

 

[mdauben]

I do appreciate the advice folks are offering... it just feels like being sold on a BMW when I really just need a Toyota...

The problem with your anology is that in order to function, a japanese style sword has to be a certain minimum quality in materials and craftsmanship. A katana or wakizashi is a cutting (as opposed to chopping) weapon, and requires a razor sharp edge to cut effectivly, and one that will not chip or dull easily. That costs money. Any sword needs to be stiff enough not to bend when it strikes something, but stong enough not to break. Again, this costs money. A good katana or wakizashi can't just be stamped out of sheet stock and sharpened on a grinding wheel. A traditional blade takes hundreds of man-hours of work to create, and even a modern style copy requires good quality steel, proper heat treating and proper design.

Its not that we are trying to talk you into a BMW when you want a Toyota, its that we are trying to talk you out of buying a piece of junk that will never cut properly and may well break in your intended usage.

 

[leadcounsel]

a modern style copy requires good quality steel, proper heat treating and proper design.

Thanks for the reply. Just wanted to address this point. I GET IT. I accept high quality steel is necessary. I'm not suggesting buying cheap steel. But again, properly heat treated high quality steel (1095, T10, etc., differentially hardened) costs very little. We live in 2015. We aren't mining iron from a stream and hammering out the imperfections by hand...

Manufacturing steel isn't rocket science and has been perfected for generations. Let's look at a comparison. A Kbar knife is a 7" 1095 hardened steel blade, sharpened razor sharp, overall length 12 inches of steel,. It's $53. That's less than $5 per inch of steel.
http://www.amazon.com/KA-BAR-Marine...TF8&qid=1432243588&sr=8-1&keywords=kbar+knife

Sure KBars can and do break, but that's extremely rare.

By extrapolation, a Katana in 1095 steel is about 30" blade, overall about 40" of steel with the tang. Say you double the price of steel at $10 per inch, we're at $400 for the finished steel blade. Or even generously triple the price of the Kbar per inch of 1095 steel (factoring in extra labor, skill, longer blade to curve and sharpen), at $15 per inch of steel. That's $15 x 40" and you're still only at $600 for the blade... maybe throw in an ornate handle, wrap, pommel, hilt, etc. for another $100... and with extremely generous materials and craftsmanship your still WELL beneath $1000...

When high quality hardened heat treated steel costs a couple dollars per pound, it seems that - again - there is little explanation for a $500 and no real explanation for a practical $1000+ blade other than the whistles and bells and artistry of it... Pretty simple to find the center of balance on an item like a blade. Minimal skill level involved given blades are about as old as humans started making steel tools. Perhaps a grand master can tell the difference in balance, but for my purposes perhaps not.

I am discussing this not to ruffle feathers - I just like to UNDERSTAND where and why the price is so high for an otherwise pretty rudimentary (in terms of technology) item. I'm not the guy that needs a $400 custom knife when a $50 knife does the same job just as well. So FOR ME that $350 is just wasted money which could be put to better use (mortgage, savings, investments, etc.). I guess I'm more practical and less flashy and not driven by name brands but instead by practical quality.

 

[scythefwd]

I've seen just the tsuba run 100.... Lead... Should isn't is. For a blade suitable to cut, the stresses are massively different than that kbar. Because of that, the steel quality has to be different. Your example also ignored the economies of scale. Let's look at the pieces that kbar has.. 4 including scales?

Let's look at the sword. End cap, hand guard, two grip panels, imitation ray skin, grip swells, wrap, two tapered pins, a couple of spacers, and the blade. Those, in their cheapest of quality are cast.

These aren't mass produced things, even the cheapies. There is hand fitting involved. The cheapies, when do e right can cut... But just as many or more can break very easily during those cuts. The guys that train with the blades get the better swords not out of snobbery but for how they cut. And no, there isn't a chance in hell you are going to get a folded, differentially treated carbon blade for 1k. Those blades arent only 2 hardness... There are 3 and the qualities of the steel that gets different treatments also has different coarseness of grain, and different carbon content for each steel. They didnt do that cause it was artistry, the did it because the blades were used in combat and peoples lives depended on them. The cheapies may cut bamboo and rittan, the nice ones will snap that cheapie.

 

[tomrkba]

I am discussing this not to ruffle feathers - I just like to UNDERSTAND where and why the price is so high for an otherwise pretty rudimentary (in terms of technology) item.

Minimal skill level involved given blades are about as old as humans started making steel tools. Perhaps a grand master can tell the difference in balance

You have no idea what you're talking about. The skill involved in making a sword by hand is immense. It is a daunting task. I find it absolutely incredible that a medieval swordsmith could make the blades that still exist today.

Nobody is getting upset. We're just explaining the facts. I think there are three schools of Japanese sword makers left. They have a very difficult time financially and some are giving up. There was an article on this recently.

Watch the Peter Johnsson videos (post #46 of this thread). Making swords is far more difficult than making a knife.

I guess I'm more practical and less flashy and not driven by name brands but instead by practical quality.

"Practical quality" in a katana is difficult to pin down. There are many variables. Unfortunately, the market is filled with shoddy makers. This makes buying a practical katana for under $300-500 difficult, if not impossible. Most people have no idea what they're getting into. This is why the JSA guys told me the Hanwei Shinto is the MINIMUM sword to get. It is not a great sword, but it is suitable for cutting. If you want some quality, then just grit your teeth and get a MAS.

***

Let's talk about actual costs for a handmade sword built by a professional swordsmith (not a factory worker). If you do the math for the labor, these guys are getting a very low hourly wage. It is THAT much work.

Polishing the sword properly, by a professional who spent a decade learning how to do it, will cost a huge amount of money. It will not be an edge created by a sanding belt. The sword will be a beautiful work of art when complete.

A friend of mine bought a bare blade from a custom maker for $8,000. Here are the quotes he gave me for what it will cost him to finish the sword:

Tsuka core $250
Tsuka wrap - $400 (this is just wrapping the handle!)
Leather saya(scabbard) $1000
Fittings (hand guard, end cap etc) at least $1000
Habaki (blade collar) $550

You want to spend $300 on the entire sword! It's a bit like asking what you're getting that is different between a Rock Island Armory 1911 and an Heirloom Precision 1911. You can get a cutter for $300--if you're lucky. The Sword Buyer's Guide katana I handled in class was not permitted to be used (From what I understand, there have been different runs of them). It was advertised as a "practical cutting katana" but was rejected as unsafe. I avoid manufacturers who cannot build a consistent product across different production runs.

Just get the Hanwei Shinto for $600 and call it good. It is the "Toyota" you're looking for.

 

[grter]

I have heard good things about the busse. swamp rat line of swords they may not be as well balanced as a quality katana matched to the user but for a beater I heard they do not break and cut quite well in other words they are safe.

I do agree 100% that when it come to swords things get dicey and a lack of quality as well as coners cut for mass production while not a big deal with a small knife (but that would depend on what it's used for too) is very dangerous in long bladed cutting instruments like swords.

 

[hso]

they may not be as well balanced as a quality katana

They're not. They're durable, but "dead" in the hand.

This is almost like trying to describe the taste of something or the feel of a perfect swing with a perfect bat hitting a perfect ball to the stands. Until you feel it and can repeat it you're going to have a huge barrier to understanding what the flow of a proper sword is. That makes it difficult to explain and understand.

 

[tomrkba]

This is almost like trying to describe the taste of something or the feel of a perfect swing with a perfect bat hitting a perfect ball to the stands. Until you feel it and can repeat it you're going to have a huge barrier to understanding what the flow of a proper sword is. That makes it difficult to explain and understand.

"Flow" is not difficult to describe in terms of technique. It comes down to this: you hold the sword loosely in your hands. You cast the tip out as if you're casting a fishing line. The hip turns and you step after the sword is moving. The core of your body drives the blade forward and you follow through. You tighten your hands as the blade enters the target and you stop the swing such that the point is near the ground and the pommel is pointed at your stomach. Your grip is maximum at that point. The act of tightening your hands and slowing the blade after it passes through the target prevents the tip from hitting the ground.

(The D'Capitan is a single handed tool, but provides a good example of bad flow).

Incorrectly built swords, such as the Zombie Tools D'Capitan, will place additional stress on the hand, wrist and arm when attempting to stop the blade. The blade refuses to stop moving because the point of balance is too far forward for the weight and shape of the blade and hilt. The result is the user must take additional action to stop the momentum and may not succeed. You will feel the stress on the tendons of the wrist. Redirecting the momentum is difficult and clumsy. Contrast this with the properly built swords used by Roland Warzecha. Notice at 0:44 how she is able to flip the sword around with little apparent effort. The ZT D'Capitan is not capable of that. Therefore, the D'Capitan is a mere tool shaped somewhat like a sword.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOO2ch5uNBc

Contrast this with larger swords. The Iberian Montante or Italian Spadone du Mani are large swords (historical weights are typically between 4.5 and 6.5 pounds with POB between 3 1/2" and 5". OAL is generally between 58" and 66".) that still flow properly because of the form of the handle, shape of the blade, points of balance and percussion and so forth.

James Clark as a very badly made Montante trainer from a mystery maker that weighs seven pounds and has a POB in the handle. The handle is too short, the pommel too heavy and the blade is not correctly shaped. It is difficult to get moving. It wears down the user very quickly. It can turn quickly, but momentum is lacking. This forces the user to muscle the blade forward. It's a terrible sword that serves as an excellent example of the opposite problem of the D'Capitan.

Here is James Clark demonstrating the 16 Simple Rules (katas) of the Montante from Figueyredo. You can see the flow of the sword from movement to movement. Keep in mind the sword he is using weighs approximately 4 3/4 pounds and the point of balance is between 3 1/2" and 4". The hilt is 16 1/2" long and the blade is 45" long (it is the Montante Trainer by Arms and Armor).

Everyone thinks two handed swords are slow. They are terrifyingly fast and, had they been slow, the users would have perished on the battlefields of Europe. He is not doing these moves with full force. I can tell you right now that a Montante coming at your head with HALF force is terrifying and it blows right through any lighter sword's parry (such as a longsword or katana). The extra nine+ inches of blade dramatically increase the tip velocity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYNy_drriXs

 

[rbernie]

They are terrifyingly fast

No kidding - that was awesome!

 

[Darkbob]

If the only reason the SBG Custom was not allowed to cut was that is wasn't full tang and only had a single handle peg, you'll be relieved to know that the current version has corrected both of those issues.

I own a Cheness Nagasa that I purchase from SBG probably 6 or 7 years ago. I love it. It is heavier than a standard Katana since it's 30" instead of the 27 or 28" standard blades. It isn't razor sharp, but it doesn't need to be. The blade's geometry cuts. Mine is mono-tempered (9260), and I think that's a good choice for someone without much experience cutting because it is more forgiving on a bad cut. I will say that I would buy the SBG Custom Kat and be confident cutting with it.

Look at the destructive testing videos on the SBG's website to see how tough the steel is and how sturdy the swords are. He does some stuff that is crazy to those blades.

Most of my little cutting experience is with milk jugs, pop bottles, and laundry detergent bottles, but I have cut a bit of green bamboo wrapped with the (tatami-style) beach mats. I played at Kendo for a while and have some understanding of how a sword works. I haven't gotten the blades out for a couple of years. Now I'm getting the itch to do so again. Time to see what I can find for a source of cutting materials now.

 

[scythefwd]

Tomrkba.. a LOT of his movements are very similar to working with a jo. There is a kata called chican no kun (spelling isnt right, I'll guarantee). I'll see if I can find a video of it for ya.. you can see that he manipulates the bo very similar .. working from the back third... balance point again is right about 5-8" in front of the front hand..

 

[tomrkba]

If the only reason the SBG Custom was not allowed to cut was that is wasn't full tang and only had a single handle peg, you'll be relieved to know that the current version has corrected both of those issues.

Oh...that's great news! I may pick one up then after doing a bit of research. I'll ask around at Longpoint 2015 to see if anyone has one and what they think of it.

 

[tomrkba]

@scythefwd

Yeah, there is much in common with that and Jogo du Pau. JdP seems to be one way the art survived. Check out Luis Preto's site: http://www.pretomartialarts.com

If you're on facebook, feel free to join the Montante Swordsmanship group. Make sure there is something on your wall that says "The High Road" or has guns or swords. Many spammers try to join so I research everyone's page before accepting them.

Some of the guys in the Montante Swordsmanship group are very talented and they post lots of videos and interpretations of the sources.

 

[scythefwd]

I appreciate the invite.. but I keep that stuff off my wall, at least on a personal level.

 

[tomrkba]

Just put "Joining Montante Swordsmanship" or something.