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War is an ugly thing and so is the "political left"

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Drjones

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http://www.juntosociety.com/guest/pappas/crp_war022303.html


War is an ugly thing and so is the "political left"


Col. Robert Pappas
02/23/03


The time of reckoning is upon the UN and in the President's words following the attacks on the US, "you are either for us, or you are against us." It is the writer's opinion there was a direct connection between the WTC and Pentagon attacks and Iraq. That there may be no Iraqi "fingerprints" is irrelevant in view of the fact that Hussein has harbored, funded, and nurtured the "al queda," Hammas, and Islamic jihad networks. Further, it is fact that Hussein has violated the provisions of the Gulf War cease-fire accords virtually continuously since the conclusion thereof. Even the ACLU agrees that circumstantial evidence can be damning. Now, the President is forced to clean up the mess left by his predecessor if there is ever to be peace in the Middle East and security at home.

When those on the left make arguments that have the net effect of supporting Hussein (one cannot help but remember Hussein uttering the words, "We didn't do it, but we're glad someone did"), his face becomes indelibly imprinted upon their own. The writer has long sensed that the wave of patriotism would pass, that the left would not wish to see, understand or make the connection between the so-called, "War on Terrorism" and the pending action against Hussein. This despite the President's admonition that the "War on Terrorism" would be long and trying, that it would take many forms, and that some actions would be visible while others would not.

With notable exceptions no one who has ever witnessed or been in war wants war. John Stewart Mill expressed the dilemma in unmistakable terms when he wrote, "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; (but) the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

To the extent that the left does not make the connections between the events of September 11th, and the President's intention to force Iraq to comply with the provisions of the Gulf War cease-fire accords, it shows its inability to come to grips with reality. Also to understand the lessons of history, and it is they who are the objects of Mill's observations above. For everyone else George Santayana wrote: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Remember September 11th, 2001!

Semper Fidelis.

Col. Pappas

mailto: [email protected]
 
interesting opinion. I've seen nothing that backs it up though, just innuendo. I saw a much higher correlation between the Saudi's and 9/11 with verifiable proof.
 
interesting opinion. I've seen nothing that backs it up though, just innuendo. I saw a much higher correlation between the Saudi's and 9/11 with verifiable proof.

I guess the fact that a military Colonel might be privy to a bit more information than you never entered your mind, eh?
 
ah yes, the old secret keepers defense. no, it didn't enter my mind cause it's a load of horse crap.
 
"Propaganda…must always be essentially simple and repetitious. In the long run, only he will achieve basic results in influencing public opinion who is able to reduce problems to the simplest terms and who has the courage to keep forever repeating them in this simplified form despite the objections of the intellectuals." - Joseph Goebbels’ diary, 1/29/42

"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." - Hermann Goering

db
 
the Feith memo reeks to high heavens, it's basically the same old intel and half truths that's been in the public realm for a year, just respun and leaked.

this memo is the best the Bush admin can do otherwise they's leak something substantial. That means they have squat- just lies.

There is no proof in it, just more BS. I'd love to hear more about all the people we've interogatted who have debunked any link between Saddam and AQ.

I don't have time for a point by point rebuttal, and the article was picked up and debunked a couple weeks ago. Isikoff at Newsweek did a great job at exposing Feith. Look it up ay MSNBC.

If you fell for the Case Closed argument, you owe yourself a peek at it.

these threads are time robbers :) but I'm liking them
 
"Propaganda…must always be essentially simple and repetitious. In the long run, only he will achieve basic results in influencing public opinion who is able to reduce problems to the simplest terms and who has the courage to keep forever repeating them in this simplified form despite the objections of the intellectuals." - Joseph Goebbels’ diary, 1/29/42

Hahahahaha....do you have any idea how funny this quote is coming from someone on the left?

If I hear another liberal say "propaganda," "imperialism," "Hegemony," or any of their other buzzwords that THEY are constantly parroting like a crazed bird, I'm gonna freak.

Take your own advice.
 
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." - Hermann Goering

Proof positive that the liberals live in a universe that couldn't even pretend to resemble our own.

I guess we were all just imagining:

9/11/01

USS Cole

US Embassy

World Trade Center 02/1993

Etc. etc.

You honestly are implying that we aren't being attacked????

That's just sick and an insult to the men who are fighting and dying for you.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
 
Jonesy,

If you don't have time for a point-by-point rebuttal, then you don't have a rebuttal. All you have is name-calling. You can do better. I gave you a link, you give me one. Or pick some points and rebut them. Educate me, Jonesy!

Calling it a lie just won't flush. Duranty called the Soviet terror-famine a lie. We know better.

I'm going home now, so don't talk about me while I'm gone.
 
Assume they all lied...

Even if we assume that every intel person who assessed the situation in Iraq lied, and if we assume that the Bush administration lied; what has resulted?

1. A murderous dictator has been overthrown. (300,00 in mass graves, with more being found every day)

2. Thousands of Iraqui lives have been saved at the cost of fewer US soldiers who were lost in Gulf War I.

3. Iraq is no longer offering rewards to Palestinian murderers.

4. Al Quaida, and othe terrorists have shifted the focus of their attacks to Iraq, Turkey and Saudi Arabia from New York and DC.


I don't know about you, but I think our nation can live with that.
 
actually K- it means no time for a rebuttal. nice punt though.

have a good weekend! Go Pats!
 
You honestly are implying that we aren't being attacked????

Yes, my country was attacked by Wahabi Saudis.

That's just sick and an insult to the men who are fighting and dying for you.

No insult intended to our military. I never felt threatened by SH. I did feel threatened by AQ, and I supported our clearing out of Afghanistan.

I also believe that we have ignored the real threat (the Saudis) in order that Bush, his VP, and their buddies can further enrich themselves at the cost of a few thousand (mostly minority) lives and, as much as possible, establish an American empire in the Middle East.

Further, I'm sure that our continuing fustercluck in Iraq is the single most effective recruiting technique the OBL could have created. I'm sure that he's pleased.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

See above.

db
 
I also believe that we have ignored the real threat (the Saudis) in order that Bush, his VP, and their buddies can further enrich themselves at the cost of a few thousand (mostly minority) lives and, as much as possible, establish an American empire in the Middle East.


All: is there a polite way to tell a person that I think they are insane?
 
"Is so!" followed by "Is not!" does not make for a worthwhile thread...

If anybody's gotta worry about "proof", might's well take it to email or PM...

Art

Very true, Mr. Art.

However, if you can tell me how I'd even begin to hold a logical conversation with an individual who truly believes that our President took our country to war just to make a profit for himself and his buddies, I'd love to hear it.

Dave is probably the guy who's been posting all those "The Matrix is real...free your mind" signs around my college campus of late... ;)

:neener:
 
What I think is absolutely hilarious is that those who think the Adminitration uses deception to achieve it's goal never seem to consider that it is just as possible that Al-Queda used deception in it's choice of personnel for 9-11. One of the goals of Al-Queda is to separate the US from the Saudi government and having a terrorist attack by Saudi nationals would be a pretty good wedge.

But then the opponents of the Iraq war wouldn't be able to use the "Iraq was an innocent bystander, it was the evil Saudis" argument.
 
Drjones said;
I guess the fact that a military Colonel might be privy to a bit more information than you never entered your mind, eh?

If you think that a Colonel would have more strategic information then anyone else who stays aware in the media, you are sadly mistaken. Even a Colonel will only have the information relating to his small piece of the pie. A Colonel working on a joint staff would have good information about what's going on in the AOR his commander is responsible for. A Colonel working for the JCS in the Pentagon might have a good overview of the world situation that would give him/her inside information. A Colonel who commands a Brigade would have inside information on things going on in areas his command is deployed in or preparing to be deployed to. A Colonel working in logistics may not know anything more about the world situation then you do. When judging the veracity of so called inside information, you need to look at what the person whispering the secrets in your ear does, not what rank he wears.

Jeff
 
Drjones, if you think somebody's argument is totally illogical and fallacious, it's probably best to ignore it and not respond.

I've always figured that trying to illustrate that an absurd line of reasoning is indeed absurd is about as worthwhile as mud-wrestling with a pig. Most folks can figure it all out, anyway, and you can save wear and tear on your keyboard.

:D, Art
 
It is possible

What I think is absolutely hilarious is that those who think the Adminitration uses deception to achieve it's goal never seem to consider that it is just as possible that Al-Queda used deception in it's choice of personnel for 9-11. One of the goals of Al-Queda is to separate the US from the Saudi government and having a terrorist attack by Saudi nationals would be a pretty good wedge.

I think all governments use deception. And it is very possible you are right.

However, the Saudi situation has been growing desperate for a while. The US backed regime has decimated the middle class and led to a huge increase in discontent. Saudi Arabia is also a very conservative, religious nation. Iraq is not. Culturally they are very different. The uS is probably also impatient because the Saudi regime is trying to survive by playing both sides

My guess is that the US realizes that our Saudi connection is soon to be lost, along with our oil supply. Iraq represented a good alternative because it had a dictator hated all over the world, a great supply of oil, and a largely secular population.

The reason the Bush admin is taking so much heat is that they aren't doing a very good job of avoiding the appearance of impropriety when it comes to serving the interests of the oil industry. After all of the bashing of the Clinton administration's conflict of interests, you have some astonishing blunders taking place. Contracts to Haliburton, the pres' friend and campaign adviser advising on obtaining contracts in Iraq, the VP keeping secret who he invited to an energy policy meeting, the White House throwing out their own administration's EPA study on the impact of ANWAR drilling and replacing it with a memo. The list is growing longer every day, and may lead to a scandal before long.
 
Since everyone has their mind made up regarding all this, the following won't change anyone's mind I'm sure, but still, the article does point out some interesting things...

From today's The Federalist

FEDERALIST PERSPECTIVE

Top of the fold...

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Based on The Federalist's assessment of open-source information
combined with excellent leads from high-level military and
intelligence analysts, we have vigorously defended our nation's
military assault on Afghanistan and Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime.
It can no longer be credibly argued but that these are major fronts
in the conduct of our war against Jihadistan (that borderless
nation of Islamic extremists with global reach, inhabited by
al-Qa'ida and other Islamists who are targeting the U.S.). It has
also been our considered position that Saddam's WMD programs and
his alliance with terrorist organizations was a major threat to
U.S. national security -- and will remain so until the products of
his biological and nuclear programs are discovered and destroyed.

Of course, Operation Iraqi Freedom has its detractors.
Most notable are those Democrats, such as Ted Kennedy and the
ever-opportunistic "Braying Herd of Jackasses" seeking the
Demo-nomination for president, who have openly called President
George Bush a "liar" for his assertions justifying military
intervention.

Their erroneous accusations notwithstanding, there is substantial
new evidence emerging from truckloads of documents seized in the
days following the fall of the Saddamite regime that the Butcher
of Baghdad did, indeed, have direct links to Osama bin Laden's
al-Qa'ida network (links only the most nescient of observers
would deny).

Translations of highly detailed Iraqi intelligence reports
reveal, among many connections, that senior al-Qa'ida leader
Abu Musaab Zarqawi met with Iraqi Intelligence Service officials
on numerous occasions just prior to Saddam's ouster; that Ayman
al-Zawahri, Osama bin Laden's closest adviser, met several times
with Iraqi Intelligence Service Deputy Director Faruq Hijazi
prior to September 11, 2001; and that al-Qa'ida terrorists with
Ansar al-Islam in Northern Iraq operated with impunity under
Saddam's orders. There is also specific evidence that high-level
Iraqis traveled to Sudan in the mid-1990s to teach al-Qa'ida
operatives how to make sophisticated vehicle bombs similar to
those al-Qa'ida used against targets in Saudi Arabia and two
U.S. embassies in Africa. This information utterly refutes a
June United Nations terrorism-committee report which concluded,
at that time, there were no links between Saddam and al-Qa'ida.

The new findings confirm an assertion about the Saddam-al-Qa'ida
link by CIA Director George Tenet as far back as October, 2002,
when he informed the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence,
"We have solid reporting of senior-level contacts between Iraq
and al-Qa'ida going back a decade. ... We have credible reporting
that al-Qa'ida leaders sought contacts in Iraq who could help
them acquire WMD capabilities."

Of course, the big question remains, where are Saddam's WMD
stores, particularly his nuclear components and his biological
toxins -- including large quantities of weapons-grade anthrax?
Also in October of 2002, The Federalist reported that it would
be unlikely that Allied Forces would discover Saddam's WMD
stores in Iraq -- that the UN Security Council's foot-dragging
provided a large window for Saddam to export his biological and
nuclear WMD. At that time, we wrote, "There is a substantial
body of intelligence supporting our position that Iraq shipped
some or all of its biological and nuclear WMD stores to Syria
and Lebanon's heavily fortified Bekaa Valley."

It is our fervent hope that those weapons are still in that
region and that we can keep the warfront on Jihadi turf rather
than witness its devastation on our soil once again.

Regarding the whereabouts of Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden,
and the threat posed by their survival, it's highly improbable,
despite speculation to the contrary, that they still exercise
any appreciable command and control of ongoing assaults against
Allied targets. Such leadership would occasionally require
sticking one's head out of whatever hole it is in -- and would
thus allow us to lop it off. Still, it's important to the
emerging governments of Iraq and Afghanistan that both these
murderous psychopaths be captured and/or killed. To that end,
special units are conducting 24/7 hunt-and-kill operations in
Iraq and along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
 
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

No kidding - you can't prove a negative. So there we are. You can't prove they were there and I can't prove they weren't.

This thread offered exactly zero new information about the issue at hand. If proof of WMD were available, you can bet it would be exploited for political gain. When I see some hard information I will be the first to cheer. I actually thought we should have invaded 10 years ago, but for different reasons. I just don't think Bush, Cheney, et al. have been honest about why we invaded. There are good reasons, alright, just not the ones they offered.

I'm no peace lover, I just would appreciate a little honesty from the administration.

By the way, the good colonel pretty much fails to do anything but offer rehashed circumstantial evidence, then cites the ACLU as supporting such logic. Wow.
 
Dr. Jones, I'll try and keep this civil.

All: is there a polite way to tell a person that I think they are insane?

You think I'm insane. Possibly.

However, if you can tell me how I'd even begin to hold a logical conversation with an individual who truly believes that our President took our country to war just to make a profit for himself and his buddies

No. I'm not insane, i'm just stupid... OK.

I think that the people who started this war are evil. To give them the benefit of the doubt would be to assume that they did it soley to further the power of the USA - and that the pleasant side effect (unintended consequence) would be to allow their buddies to make billions of $.

I also think that the people who support them are equally culpable.

Bush's people laid all this out before 9/11 in the "Project for the New American Century".

You're a student? Find it, read it, and report back.

db
 
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