Warranty track. RIA/Armscor

[ATLDave]

So we agree that a sharp burr on the trigger of a youth rifle that will cut a child’s finger is not acceptable.

I’m not sure I do. It’s perfectly rational for someone to decide that their time is worth less than their money and that, as a result, taking care of final deburring and other finishing tasks is not a problem- as long as they get a price break.

It’s probably best for the market and consumer that there be products available at a range of price points and levels of finish. When you pay $100 for a gun, no, I wouldn’t consider rough casting that can be fixed to be “unacceptable.”

 

[WestKentucky]

It’s a shame that a man gets scolded for asking that a brand new product be acceptable. It’s folks like some in this thread who accept fixable junk that makes that be acceptable to manufacturers. If my money pays for a product, I expect the product to at least be usable and safe. Others should demand the same. This mentality is a cancer on our society because we will continue accepting subpar in one area, then that trickles over to another, and eventually it’s everything. We now have disposable cars, disposable guns, disposable mowers, and sadly people even look at their families in such manner. Please guys, don’t accept unacceptable.

 

[BigBore44]

It’s a shame that a man gets scolded for asking that a brand new product be acceptable. It’s folks like some in this thread who accept fixable junk that makes that be acceptable to manufacturers. If my money pays for a product, I expect the product to at least be usable and safe. Others should demand the same. This mentality is a cancer on our society because we will continue accepting subpar in one area, then that trickles over to another, and eventually it’s everything. We now have disposable cars, disposable guns, disposable mowers, and sadly people even look at their families in such manner. Please guys, don’t accept unacceptable.

You know, I honestly do see your point. I really do. That burr shouldn’t be there. And you’re right, accepting the unacceptable, shouldn’t be the norm. The problem I see is not just the definition of acceptable, but also the ability of people to fix things things themselves. We have become a world of “I want someone else to fix this problem for me. I shouldn’t have to.” Well when you’re stranded in the middle of nowhere with a flat tire, and AAA is 2 hours away, why not just change the dang thing and save yourself 1.5 hours of waiting around updating your Facebook status and get back on the road? (I don’t mean you personally. Just the mentality of many people today). That gun is fully functional. That gun is perfectly safe. It has a tiny sharp burr on the bottom of the trigger. Take 20 seconds with a file and go enjoy shooting with your kids instead of making a deal out of this. It’s not a starter on a Chevy. That’s an absurd comparison. It’s more like the license plate bulb is burned out (Eiko 194 btw). If it had a problem in the machining that caused the mag to stick, the sight was canted, it FTF, bolt jammed, missing finish under the stock, etc, Heck yes. Send it in and have it fixed. I’d back you 100%. But this is a tiny burr that’s barely visible even in the picture. Heck let your kid fix it. You might be making a future custom gunsmith.

FYI, I have the RIA TAC II in 10mm. It’s a fantastic firearm. But be careful. The stock grips are actually pretty sharp.

 

[Fiv3r]

I see the OP's point...sorta. Yes, in a perfect world the gun should be burr-free and smooth and perfect. I agree that RIA should know about it and see how they respond.

My issue is the level of expectation. RIA will most likely not send you the parts you require. They are going to ask for you to send it back. Turn around time will be maybe a week and a half, will be at no cost to you, and they will probably send you a sticker and a pin for your trouble. That's reasonable, especially for price point of the gun.

They are not going to treat you like a king by sending you the parts you desire because their business model and liability does not afford them to do so. RIA's niche is very serviceable guns that a known to be rough around the edges but functional at very fair prices. Their CS revolves around fixing QC issues quickly and with very little hassle. However, unless it's a spring or whatnot, they tend to want the gun in hand.

I had one CS issue with a RIA. It was a Officer model .45 that had an issue with the slide stop walking out. They did at first send me a new pin, but when it kept walking and jamming the gun they wanted it back. They filed it flush and it fixed the issue. None of it cost me a dime, just a bit of patience.

That's about as much as will be reasonable to expect from them based on what I have read and experienced. I would fix it myself and send them an email explaining why I thought it was unacceptable that I had to fix the issue on a brand new rifle. My guess is that you will get a prompt apology and they will send you a sticker and pin as well as an offer to send the gun in for inspection on their dime.

 

[chicharrones]

It’s a shame that a man gets scolded for asking that a brand new product be acceptable. It’s folks like some in this thread who accept fixable junk that makes that be acceptable to manufacturers. If my money pays for a product, I expect the product to at least be usable and safe. Others should demand the same. This mentality is a cancer on our society because we will continue accepting subpar in one area, then that trickles over to another, and eventually it’s everything. We now have disposable cars, disposable guns, disposable mowers, and sadly people even look at their families in such manner. Please guys, don’t accept unacceptable.

Ummm. In the guns I've bought before and after the internet was a market for everything, I've had to fix little things on nearly each and every one of them. Annoying for sure, but I didn't purchase "bespoke" guns either.

Back in the day, the solution was to take it back to the gun shop I bought it from, if I felt like taking the time and paying the gas money. Because the odds were that I'd have to leave the gun with them and pick it up in a week. I'd rather be shooting in a day than in seven days when possible.

The quickest solution back then was to fix it oneself or get the help of a neighbor. It still holds the same nowadays for the right situations.

Regarding disposable cars, guns, mowers, etc. Sure, there are items at those price points. But with care and maintenance, even low price point items can last much longer than the manufacturer intended. Or, just buy Toyotas, Glocks, and Honda mowers.

Anyway, I'm not here to pick on anyone. I just tend to pick my battles differently, that's all.

 

[WestKentucky]

Ummm. In the guns I've bought before and after the internet was a market for everything, I've had to fix little things on nearly each and every one of them. Annoying for sure, but I didn't purchase "bespoke" guns either.

Back in the day, the solution was to take it back to the gun shop I bought it from, if I felt like taking the time and paying the gas money. Because the odds were that I'd have to leave the gun with them and pick it up in a week. I'd rather be shooting in a day than in seven days when possible.

The quickest solution back then was to fix it oneself or get the help of a neighbor. It still holds the same nowadays for the right situations.

Regarding disposable cars, guns, mowers, etc. Sure, there are items at those price points. But with care and maintenance, even low price point items can last much longer than the manufacturer intended. Or, just buy Toyotas, Glocks, and Honda mowers.

Anyway, I'm not here to pick on anyone. I just tend to pick my battles differently, that's all.

I still don’t understand why this is a battle. I posted that I had sent in a warranty request, and like many other threads a few people commented about being interested to see how it’s handled. Then came the posts about how I should fix it myself and not even give RIA a chance to make it right. If people don’t like the fact that I asked for a repair then they can skip the thread.

 

[Kingcreek]

I wasn't trying to pick a fight when I said what I would do if I was in your situation.
Now if I was the CS contact person at RIA, I would probably contact you with a personal phone call. I might politely ask you if you would be willing to deburr it yourself in exchange for a free T shirt and hat.
There, I've played both sides and I'm done. Good luck. Hope your kiddo is able to enjoy the rifle.

 

[Wisco]

If people don’t like the fact that I asked for a repair then they can skip the thread.

So, only people who agree with you can say something? Sounds familiar, speaking of all the ills present in the world.

 

[ATLDave]

Nobody is "scolding" you or making a "battle." It's just a discussion. You seem to have strong views about whether this particular issue/defect is "unacceptable." As illustrated by the different views expressed in the thread, different consumers feel different ways about this. Of course, this just illustrates the point about different products at different price points being aimed at different consumers. You may just not be a $100-gun guy. That's cool. I'm not really one either! But there are some consumers out there for whom being able to get a gun in-hand for about a hundred bucks is worth the trouble of either some quick filing or putting themselves and the manufacturer through the paces of a warranty return.

I make a similar calculation in my choice of "gamer gun" for USPSA. I shoot in an equipment division where guns costing $3k or more are common. I use a gun that I bought for about $1k. It functioned out of the box, but in order to make it truly comparable, I have needed to do some things to it. Some of them cost money, others just cost some of my time. All in, I still don't have $2k in the gun, and I feel it will shoot with the ones that cost $3k+. Now, I could groan and complain about having to spend time with a dremel blending a magwell to the frame, or having to get a gunsmith to take a bit of creep out of the trigger (or, later, replacing the trigger itself with a better design). The manufacturer could do all those things. In fact, they have a "custom shop" line where that kind of work is already done. And the same gun out of their custom shop costs... a little over $3k.

 

[Deus Machina]

Dumbing it down to the way I see it: If I buy a 'budget' gun, I don't expect perfection but I do expect fit and finish to include certain things. Parts that must be manipulated during function should not be able to cut you, for instance.
For the car summary, I wouldn't care if my Nissan Versa's stitching wasn't even like a Mercedes', but I would definitely care if the internal seat frame had a sharp edge poking through the cushion.
For this particular problem, I would just take a file to it. If I was shopping around and seriously considering more of the company's products, however, something small and relatively unimportant like this would work fantastically as a test for their service and repair department.

 

[ATLDave]

Parts that must be manipulated during function should not be able to cut you, for instance.

Every single S&W cylinder release for K, L, and N-frame (and maybe others, those are just the ones where I know it for a fact) revolvers (both new and old style) will cut the top of my right thumb if I'm shooting cartridges with any recoil past about 38 target wadcutters. That's just because of where my grip interfaces with them. I must grind on them, or else they will cut me. (I always buy a replacement latch and grind it, so I can put the original back on in unaltered condition if I ever want to.) They're not defective... they just need that work.

A great many rear or front sights will cut you if you are racking the slide vigorously enough... such as clearing a malfunction on the clock in an action pistol game (or, presumably, during defensive use). I've seen that happen to many people, and I've had it happen to me. Again, it's not defective.

Many people will get cut by hammer-bite on various pistols, including non-beavertailed 1911's or Hi-Powers. They aren't defective.

A common gunsmithing service is "dehorning," precisely because knocking down all the sharp edges that might cut you if handled with sufficient force is somewhat labor intensive and not something done with a lot of guns that roll off production lines.

Saying that nothing on the gun, or nothing you expect to touch on the gun, should be able to cut you is... well, it may be a fine standard, but it's not reflective of the real world and what most/many manufacturers deliver.

 

[WestKentucky]

Every single S&W cylinder release for K, L, and N-frame (and maybe others, those are just the ones where I know it for a fact) revolvers (both new and old style) will cut the top of my right thumb if I'm shooting cartridges with any recoil past about 38 target wadcutters. That's just because of where my grip interfaces with them. I must grind on them, or else they will cut me. (I always buy a replacement latch and grind it, so I can put the original back on in unaltered condition if I ever want to.) They're not defective... they just need that work.

A great many rear or front sights will cut you if you are racking the slide vigorously enough... such as clearing a malfunction on the clock in an action pistol game (or, presumably, during defensive use). I've seen that happen to many people, and I've had it happen to me. Again, it's not defective.

Many people will get cut by hammer-bite on various pistols, including non-beavertailed 1911's or Hi-Powers. They aren't defective.

A common gunsmithing service is "dehorning," precisely because knocking down all the sharp edges that might cut you if handled with sufficient force is somewhat labor intensive and not something done with a lot of guns that roll off production lines.

Saying that nothing on the gun, or nothing you expect to touch on the gun, should be able to cut you is... well, it may be a fine standard, but it's not reflective of the real world and what most/many manufacturers deliver.

I’m with you on most of this. I do draw a line though between operational interface and “other bits”. You touch triggers, hammers, grips, slide serrations etc as part of the operation of the gun. If your grabbing the sights then you are likely doing something wrong unless it’s a pocket pistol that has minimal grip and maximum spring weight to where you need added grip. I would be ok with having to “dehorn” those “other bits” but not the operational interface bits. And as far as hammer bite, that’s a problem of grip or fit. Grip the gun right and if it still bites then find a different gun that fits the hand. The

 

[Deus Machina]

Understood, but do they cut you while you're manipulating that control? Do you need a band-aid when you open the cylinder, or flip flip off a safety?
That's a defect. Or maybe not necessarily of the part, but on the work of the fit and finish or designers.
I consider sharp sights and the like incidental contact, not inherent to the function of that particular part. Huge bonus if they don't cut you, but not integral to the design of that part.
IMO, hammer bite problems are also a fault of the designer. I don't experience it often because I don't have big meaty mitts, but everything in me due to my beginning education toward engineering and my experience with machining and part design says that should be something to be prevented for all but the fringe range of users.

Edit: WestKentucky summarized my exact thoughts as I was typing them. Thumbs up.

 

[ATLDave]

IMO, hammer bite problems are also a fault of the designer. I don't experience it often because I don't have big meaty mitts, but everything in me due to my beginning education toward engineering and my experience with machining and part design says that should be something to be prevented for all but the fringe range of users.

The biggest issue is that handgun technique has changed over time, including how guns are gripped. If you grip a 1911A1 low enough for your right thumb to be below the safety, then you probably won't get bit. And in 1911, that's how almost everyone gripped it. For the last ~40 years, the more modern practice has been to grip higher and "ride the safety" with the right thumb. A good percentage of the population will get bitten by a rat-tail 1911 when gripping this way (I know I will, and my hands are pretty normal size, if perhaps slightly fat). The gun didn't change... the way people handle it did.

 

[Deus Machina]

The biggest issue is that handgun technique has changed over time, including how guns are gripped. If you grip a 1911A1 low enough for your right thumb to be below the safety, then you probably won't get bit. And in 1911, that's how almost everyone gripped it. For the last ~40 years, the more modern practice has been to grip higher and "ride the safety" with the right thumb. A good percentage of the population will get bitten by a rat-tail 1911 when gripping this way (I know I will, and my hands are pretty normal size, if perhaps slightly fat). The gun didn't change... the way people handle it did.

Yup. Techniques of the time meant it wasn't a problem for most users back then. Which is why a great many now have a beavertail or a different style of hammer now. New designs worked around it when it became an issue.
Whenever something new comes out, reviews always make sure to note any instances of hammer bite for a reason.

 

[doubleh]

I have no problem with your wish for RIA to fix their mistake nor one if you simply do it the easy way and file it off. It's your gun, ,money, and time so handle it how you wish. I do hope you have better luck with RIA warranty service than I did with one of their pistols that was faulty right out of the box. After a month of trying to contact them both by phone and e-mail and only getting voice box is full and mailbox is full messages I gave up, bought the part needed, and installed it. The gun is fine now and I intend to keep it. I don't intend to buy anything else with the RIA name on it though.

 

[ATLDave]

Which is why it's funny when some curmudgeon starts whining about how beavertails are the debil and detract from JMB's masterpiece and are new-fangled nonsense that does nothing and prevent you from manually cocking the gun on the draw, etc.

Different people want different things. Sometimes it's the design they want different. Sometimes it's the level of effort put into QC/fit-and-finish... and the prices that go with improvements in those.

 

[WestKentucky]

Armscor/Rock Island responded with a nicely worded email asking to see a photo of the issue. I responded with a description of the location of the issue and a photo. Photo just isn’t helpful on this situation.

 

[WestKentucky]

Another quick response, from the gunsmithing team. They essentially told me to fix it myself if I’m handy enough to swap the trigger myself. They did state that it will not void the warranty which was one of my concerns since the gun is not a common gun which I could buy parts for easily. I’m satisfied with their response because it was appropriate, timely, and pleasant.

 

[Elkins45]

Sounds like a good resolution. I'm a little surprised they are sending you a trigger, but happily so.