Wars do solve problems.......

Status
Not open for further replies.

2dogs

Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
1,865
Location
the city
http://www.nationalpost.com/commentary/story.html?id=2D265347-1FA0-4279-83E1-7C9642A55B34

The Falklands War is a model of fierce good sense

Mark Steyn
National Post


Thursday, January 16, 2003


General Leopoldo Galtieri was never one of your big-time dictators, just a run-of-the-mill generalissimo of the kind who once had a hammerlock on Latin America's presidential palaces. He died on Sunday in Buenos Aires, under house arrest or, more accurately, under one-bedroom apartment arrest. But boy, you should've seen him in the old days, back at the Casa Rosada. Everything was going swell until he made one tiny slip-up: He decided that the answer to Argentina's impending financial collapse was to invade the Falklands.

Hitherto, the regime hadn't put a foot wrong: some 30,000 Argentine dissidents are thought to have "disappeared," many of them -- in accordance with long-held judicial practice -- tossed from aircraft into the sea. General Galtieri himself was said to have cooked up the 1981-82 program whereby the junta cut back on kidnapping and killing its enemies and instead kidnapped and killed its enemies' children.

On April 2nd 1982, the General brought the benefits of this regime to a couple of thousand British subjects in the South Atlantic. By April 8th, he had installed a new military governor on the islands, General Mario Menendez. The conquered Falkland Islanders were expected to "adjust" to the new arrangements. To be sure, there'd be one or two glitches in switching from English Common Law to Latin-American military dictatorship, but these could soon be ironed out.

That was more or less the line not just of the Argies but also of the British left, and of the defeatist wing of the Tory Party, and of Britain's sanctions-breaking "partners" in the European Community, and of the UN, and of the American media, and even of a substantial chunk of the Reagan Administration. They didn't all put it that way, but that was the upshot. Chance of restoring the status quo: zero per cent.

General Galtieri spent the last 20 years telling his dwindling circle of acquaintances that it never occurred to him the British would fight back. Who can blame him? In the Seventies, the map looked very different. The Soviets held half of Europe, had neutered most of the rest, and were advancing in every corner of the globe, from Afghanistan to Ethiopia to Grenada. The West never roused itself, except occasionally to co-operate: Cuban troops were in Africa, and Pierre Trudeau's contribution to the Cold War was to allow Castro's military aircraft to refuel in Canada. America had been humbled in Vietnam and humiliated in Iran, where the smiling eunuch Carter had allowed a superpower to be turned into a laughingstock, with cocky mullahs poking the corpses of U.S. servicemen on TV.

So why would General Galtieri have had any qualms about seizing the Falklands? Yes, it was British "sovereign territory," but the American Embassy in Teheran was U.S. "sovereign territory," and all the Peanut Peacenik had done was dither helplessly and then botch an ill-thought-out rescue mission. Why would the toothless, arthritic British lion be any different?

The Falklands War is the decisive war of the last quarter-century, if only because it's the one the world -- like Galtieri -- never expected. It marks the dividing line between the free world's territorial losses of the Sixties and Seventies and its gains in the Eighties and Nineties. Galtieri wasn't an ideological enemy: He was, in the shorthand of the time, a "right-wing" general and he had plenty of pals in Washington. But, when you're perceived, as the West was, as weak and paralyzed by self-doubt, you're anybody's fool. The Commies were gobbling up real estate all over the globe, so were the Ayatollahs; why shouldn't some bargain-basement caudillos get a piece of the action?

That's my worry about the last year -- that, whatever's going on behind the scenes, the perception among the world's loonies and losers is that America isn't serious. So here's a few other lessons worth learning from Mrs. Thatcher's Falklands War, a model of fierce good sense in the face of all the usual insanity:

TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE

The first thing the British Government did was assemble and dispatch a vast task force as quickly as possible. From Mrs. Thatcher's point of view, this put a clock on events: It would take a couple of weeks for the ships to reach the area. At that point, they'd start firing. So, if General Galtieri was seriously interested in avoiding war, that was the schedule, and Maggie intended to stick to it.

For its part, Argentina calculated that the longer the situation went on without being reversed the less likely it was that it would ever be reversed. World opinion gets used to things very quickly -- the Argies have the Falklands, North Korea has nukes -- and such will to rollback as there is dissipates quickly.

In the war on terror, I fear the clock has stopped.

THE UN IS FOR SHOW ONLY

To recall what the striped-pants set were advocating after the Argentine invasion is to understand why the world should never be left to the experts. The peace plan being promoted by Javier Perez de Cuellar, the UN Secretary-General, involved the UN taking over administration of the islands. This "solution" would have been seen, correctly, as a massive defeat for the British.

The Prime Minister understood the UN was institutionally inimical to the West. The Falklands, for example, came under the organization's absurdly anachronistic "Decolonization Committee," even though the islanders had no interest in being decolonized. Mrs. Thatcher went through the motions of UN diplomacy, but she never ceded control of the agenda or the timetable.

TO THE EXPERTS, IT'S ALWAYS A QUAGMIRE

From The New York Times of May 8th 1982:

"In Argentina, Junta's Confidence Grows"

News Analysis by James M. Markham

"One of the central premises of the strategy of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher of Britain in the South Atlantic conflict -- that gradually increasing military pressure will generate concessions from the Argentine junta -- does not appear to be working ..."

If it seems incredible that The New York Times would pay good money for Mr. Markham's "analysis," look at all the Afghan quagmire guys -- hello, Eric Margolis! -- now making a good living as Iraqi quagmire predictors. Dictatorships are always unbeatable until that moment when they suddenly collapse and implode.

DICTATORS ARE NEVER RATIONAL

Why would anybody think, faced with economic catastrophe, that invading a string of distant islands is the answer? Dictators don't behave rationally. Indeed, one reason they become dictators is precisely to escape the tiresome constraints of rationality. There may be valid arguments for not going to war with Iraq, but not the ones that begin, oh, even if Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, he'd never use them against the West. Never bet on a dictator's rationality.

STABILITY IS A FETISH

From The Washington Post of May 26th 1982:

"British Move to Seek A Definitive Victory Said to Unsettle U.S.

By Leonard Downie Jr.

"Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher is creating an uncomfortable dilemma for the Reagan administration in her determination to win a complete military victory in the Falkland Islands and restore them to full British colonial administration ...

"Reagan administration officials fear that a humiliating defeat for Argentina will sour American as well as British and European relations with much of Latin America for a long time to come, according to the sources ..."

Well, the sources were wrong. Mrs. Thatcher liberated not just the Falklands, but also Argentina, at least from the military. Galtieri fell and democracy returned. The "humiliating defeat" of the junta tainted all the other puffed-up bemedalled tinpots by implication. And, whatever the problems of Latin America today, no one's pining for the return of the generals. Twenty years ago, the realpolitik crowd thought a democratic South America was a fantasy and that we had to cosy up to the strutting little El Presidentes-for-Life. Today, the same stability junkies tell us we have to do the same with Boy Assad and Co. They're wrong again. They always are.

That great thinker Sheryl Crow declared the other day: "War is based in greed and there are huge karmic retributions that will follow. I think war is never the answer to solving any problems. The best way to solve problems is to not have enemies."

In the Falklands, war solved a lot of problems. For 20 years, the islanders have lived in peace and freedom. So, in their own chaotic Latin fashion, have the liberated peoples of Argentina and most of the rest of the continent. If the best way to solve problems is not to have enemies, then the best way not to have enemies is to get rid of them. Thank you, Mrs. Thatcher. Rest in peace, General Galtieri, wherever you are.

© Copyright 2003 National Post
 
Hmmmm.

"The great thinker Sheryl Crow"... vs. Maggie Thatcher...

I'll side with Maggie every time methinks.

Why doesn't the USA have such a woman?

Oh wait... Condi does give advice to GWB. She's about the closest thing we've got to "The Iron Lady".

"Speak softly and carry a big stick"... The Good Roosevelt

Good post, 2dogs, thanks

Adios
 
Violence does indeed settle things. Sometimes for evil--witness the Holocaust. Sometimes for good--witness the Normandy landings of D-Day.

What is the real difference between repelling the North Koreans in the 1950s, repelling Iraq from Kuwait in the 1990s, or shooting an invader of your home? Me, I don't see a nickel's worth.

Art
 
If the best way to solve problems is not to have enemies, then the best way not to have enemies is to get rid of them.
I think that's the whole thing boiled down to a single sentence.

Talking with a guy at work the other night who's of the opinion that violence never solves anything. I pointed out the beginning of this country and asked him if he might reconsider. That conversation ended shortly thereafter. :D

And Art's right (yet again). Like most things in life (including firearms), war can be used for good or evil. It is not the thing which is bad, but the circumstances and intent.
 
OH, yeah, diplomacy, negotiations and agreements worked really well with Hitler, didn't they? And why didn't we negotiate with Japan after Pearl Harbor was bombed? It was probably just a misunderstanding. I'm sure if we had sent them money and supplies, everything would have been just dandy.

Everyone now sing, "Kumbayah".
 
no light with out the dark....

No music with out noise....

No spring with out winter....


No peace with out war....


Just to keep this gun related, anyone have ideas how to teach Saddam gun safety? Remember he likes to shoot his guns over crowds.....
 
Just as diplomacy is not always the best option, war is not either.

Case in point; the War or 1812. Diplomacy could have easily solved all the points that were in contention. In fact, Great Britain pretty much caved in to US demands days before the US declared war. The war was completely pointless, and brought on by the hawks which were in control of Congress at the time (but at least they did their Constitutional duty and DECLARED war.)

The Hitler analogy is false when taken as a universal. There are some times when diplomacy simply won't work, but you must analyze each situation on its own merits. Saying we should fight instead of negotiate because Hitler couldn't be negotiated with is absurd.
 
Vladimir,

you are right. The Hitler analogy is wrong when taken as a universal.

But how about when you're facing another Hitler? Another murderous despot arming himself to the teeth, with a record of attacking peaceful neighbors?

It can just as easily be said that most peace advocates thing the Hitler analogy NEVER applies, as if there has only been one man like that in human history. But they are a recurring phenomenon.
 
Mike, I reckon that's because folks keep trying to look at some particular war as though it's independent of ongoing events in other arenas.

For instance, people think of WW II in Yurrop as "Hitler", forgetting the interactions of the Communist revolution in Russia with eastern and southern Europe/Eurasia. For them, the Cold War is a separate event. Howsomever, you can follow inter-related trails through political events beginning in the late 1800s and going into the WW I era. And then the Treaty of Versailles, whose terms led directly to the rise of Der Fuhrer.

I think it's less "There will always be wars and rumors of wars." than it is that there will always be some bullying types, megalomaniacs, in the arena of national politics. Their effects become worse as nation-states get larger and as technology "advances".

Art
 
But how about when you're facing another Hitler? Another murderous despot arming himself to the teeth, with a record of attacking peaceful neighbors?

It can just as easily be said that most peace advocates thing the Hitler analogy NEVER applies, as if there has only been one man like that in human history. But they are a recurring phenomenon.

The Hitler/Germany analogy simply does not apply to Saddam/Iraq for multiple reasons. For example, before WW2 Facism was on the rise all over Europe, it was the great new ideology which seemed to be sweeping the world. Not really by force, but just because it seemed the new wave of the future. The old parliamentary states such as Great Britain seemed to be a remnant of the past, and on the way out. Germany was really the most industrialized, highly educated, scientifically advanced nation in Europe. She also had the greatest military. She was surrounded by weak nations, several of which wanted to be incorporated into the Third Reich.

Iraq has none of this. Iraq is not scientifically advanced, its ideology is a remnant of old Stalinist ideals which have been dying out all over the world for the last 50 years. Iraq is not powerful in either economic or military terms. None of Iraq's neighbors want to be part of Iraq, in fact most are openly hostile. Iraq has been unable to conquer any of her powerful neighbors, such as Iran. And the others, such as Turkey or Saudi Arabia would certainly not fall either. Saddam's greatest enemy (Israel) is certainly strong enough to take him on, and he knows it.
 
Vlad, I think the Hitler/Hussein comparison has to do with behavior, not real military power or broadly supported political philosophy.

Both instituted policies and actions which led or probably will lead to many deaths of "enemies" and their own people. Both fit the classic mold of that repression which is enforced by murder...

In a sense we're in the position now with respect to Iraq that France had in the 1930s with respect to Hitler: The military power to stop an evil SOB before a lot of dead bodies piled up. France lacked the will. (Too many facially-scarred veterans of WW I, all over France, voting "No!" to interfering in foreign affairs.)

Art
 
If the Hitler/Hussien comparison has to do only with behavior, then you must also include in that comparison a couple of dozen other 'world leaders.' Sorry, that doesn't wash. And even then, you still imply that a third-rate, fourth-world tinhorn dictatorship with a barely functional military and an imploded economy can be compared on the world scale with one of the great powers of Europe. This is nonsense.

All in all, this article is riddled with questionable logic and misuse of the facts. It's not woth consideration as a justification for any current events in the real world.

- Chris
 
The France/Germany situation had a lot more complexity than simple "lack of will." There was a pro-German faction in France, for one thing. France also was a weak nation militarily, far from ourselves as the world superpower. Hindsight is always 20/20, but at the time there were many options which seemed to not involve war in 1939. Indeed, even Hitler wasn't prepared for was so soon.

Of course, the place where the analogy truly fails is that we are not a France to Saddam's "Germany." We are not neighbors, Saddam has no territorial ambitions with us, Saddam could never win a military victory against us, etc, etc, etc.
 
To add to Vladimir's excellent post, one should remember that the horror of World War One had made the French people (who were after all led by the generation that had fought through that conflict) seek any alternative to another conflict that did not include outright war.
 
Saddam could never win a military victory against us, etc, etc, etc.

But does Saddam think that? If he can manage to acquire a nuclear weapon, he WILL do one of three things:

1. Believe that by having nukes the US will be afraid to attack him. This would allow him take take back Kuwait and any other mid-east country (at least in his mind).

2. Start a conventional war with Israel since one cannot nuke the other without retaliation. In this scenario, the other Arab states would come to his assistance and attempt once again to remove Israel from the map.

3. He will detonate a nuke inside the US and then attempt to use the threat of another explosion to try to get the US to bend to his will.
 
1. Believe that by having nukes the US will be afraid to attack him. This would allow him take take back Kuwait and any other mid-east country (at least in his mind).

And? If Kuwait can't defend itself, that's its own problem. However, nukes are not complete insurance against retaliation. What is most likely is a stalemate, because the US allies benefit from US nuclear protection. Thus Saddam couldn't use a nuke without expecting a nuclear response. Thus a conventional war could smolder for a while, without any nuclear attacks. Similar to the situation with Pakistan and India.

2. Start a conventional war with Israel since one cannot nuke the other without retaliation. In this scenario, the other Arab states would come to his assistance and attempt once again to remove Israel from the map.

Iraq does not have the military capacity to mount a successful attack against Israel. It is also unlikely that any other Arab states would support him, considering that most hate his guts. Besides, most are also dependant on US/UN aid and know that is going to stop if they attack our ally, Israel.

3. He will detonate a nuke inside the US and then attempt to use the threat of another explosion to try to get the US to bend to his will.

Unlikely. A nuke going off on our soil will mean that Americans will demand nuclear retaliation. Saddam surely knows that he can't get away with something like this, it would mean his end at the very least, and quite probably American nukes detonating over Bagdad. It should be quite obvious right now that acts of terrorism won't cow us into negotiation, 9/11 is proof of this.
 
You're missing the point. It is not what a rational person would believe but what Saddam would believe.

He thought he could annex Kuwait and no one would care. Wrong.

He thought, right up until the first bombs fell on Bagdad, that the UN forces in the Gulf War were merely there to get him to negotiate and give back PART of Kuwait. Wrong.

He thought no other Arab state would side with the US in an attack on him. Wrong.

He thought he could provoke Israel into responding to SCUD attacks, at which time the Arabs would change sides and fight with him against the US and Israel. Wrong.

He thought he could kick out the UN inspectors and resume his development of nuclear weapons. He judged that the US president would not risk another war over that. Unfortunately, he was correct with the last idiot we have occupying the Oval Office. But with the new President, Wrong.

He is completely unpredictable and has already shown that he has no problem using weapons of mass destruction against anyone, including his own citizens.
 
You're missing the point. It is not what a rational person would believe but what Saddam would believe.

How do we know Saddam is not rational? He may not make good decisions, but that does not mean he is insane.

He thought he could annex Kuwait and no one would care. Wrong.

He was partially right. All signs at the time pointed to the fact that the US wouldn't care.

He is completely unpredictable and has already shown that he has no problem using weapons of mass destruction against anyone, including his own citizens.

How is he unpredictable? I for one don't see how. And while he has used chemical weapons against his enemies, he did not use them against us. That is very telling, because it would appear that he knew that such an action would probably result in the US taking over Iraq, and himself losing power. He had every opportunity to use chemical or biological weapons against us, but did not.
 
And while he has used chemical weapons against his enemies, he did not use them against us.

That one is easy. President Bush send word to him through back channels that if he used chemical or biological weapons, the US would respond with tactical nukes and wipe him out. He knew that the UN resolution did not call for anything other than his troops leaving Kuwait, so there was no need to risk everything. You can bet that if troops were trying to take Bagdad, he would have used everything he had.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top