Watch out NY, Nassau and Suffolk Counties

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Nassau proposes ban on brightly painted guns

BY SOPHIA CHANG | [email protected];
March 27, 2008
Owning or selling brightly colored guns may soon be illegal in Nassau County under a proposed ban because the painted weapons could pass as toys, police and county officials said yesterday.

Suffolk County officials are considering a similar ban.

The proposal in Nassau County was spurred by a Wisconsin company's introduction last week of a line of gun paints called the "Bloomberg Collection," which taunts Mayor Michael Bloomberg's 2006 ban of brightly colored gun paints in New York City, said Nassau police Commissioner Lawrence Mulvey.

Along with County Executive Thomas Suozzi and Legis. Joseph Scannell (D-Baldwin), Mulvey said he intends to support Bloomberg by outlawing the possession of painted guns in Nassau County, even if they were legally purchased and licensed elsewhere.

Shaking his head during a news conference in Mineola yesterday, Mulvey picked up a Luger pistol that had been spray-painted lemon yellow.

If the bill passes, "I will not license any deceptively colored guns in the county," he said.

In addition to denying permits to anyone with a painted gun, the legislation would give current owners 30 days to restore their guns to standard colors and violators would face a penalty likely to be a $1,000 fee or up to a year in jail, Mulvey said.

He estimated that between six to 10 painted guns have previously been licensed by the county, and those gun owners would be notified of the changed rules.

Suozzi called the issue beyond the scope of the pro- or anti-gun control debate.

"Police officers are as concerned about gun control and gun safety as anyone else," Suozzi said. "It's inhuman that anyone could think of making a profit off of this."

Steve Lauer, owner of the Lauer Custom Weaponry, based in Chippewa Falls, Wis., said he sells a few Bloomberg Collection kits every day and that the majority of his gun painting products are sold to police officers and members of the military hoping to have high-visibility weapons, hoping to make them more durable or both.

Referring to Bloomberg and his anti-gun stance, Lauer said, "He's on a mission to destroy anybody that's fairly visible in the firearms industry. And we're extremely visible."

"Police officers have a hard enough job as it is without having to worry about whether a person with a pink gun is carrying a toy or a deadly weapon," said Bloomberg in a statement. "Putting our officers in that position is beneath any self-respecting business owner - and make no mistake, it could lead to terrible tragedies."

Suffolk County is considering similar legislation but the details are not finalized, said Dan Aug, a spokesman for County Executive Steve Levy.

"Any time our police officers are put in danger, it's a grave concern," Levy said in a statement yesterday.

Suffolk Police Commissioner Richard Dormer said there had not been any incidents in the county involving painted guns but that it is "definitely an officer safety issue."

Det. Tom Willdigg, president of the Nassau County Detectives Association, said the bill could save officers' lives and the union would support even a state ban on painted guns.

The Nassau bill would take at least a month to finalize, Suozzi said. While it was unclear how the county legislature will respond to the bill, Legis. Francis Becker (R-Lynbrook) said he felt most of his Republican colleagues would endorse the idea.

"In the Republican delegation, we're very supportive of our police officers," he said.

Joseph Green, who is a supervisory special agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives' New York field division, said the issue isn't new, and that he could recall seeing painted guns in the late 1980s and early '90s.

"It's been around for many, many years that criminals would try to paint their guns to disguise them to look like toys," he said.

Green couldn't say whether any painted guns had been recovered in Nassau or Suffolk. But he echoed the concerns of others that such guns pose a threat to police and civilians alike.

"It makes it much more difficult for police officers now because they really have to be extra, extra cautious," he said.

Staff writers Matthew Chayes and Christine Armario contributed to this story.

Toy gun or real gun? They were displayed by New York City officials in 2006, along with a selection of paints. For the answer, see the caption at right.
 
In addition to denying permits to anyone with a painted gun, the legislation would give current owners 30 days to restore their guns to standard colors and violators would face a penalty likely to be a $1,000 fee or up to a year in jail, Mulvey said.
I'm not a lawyer... would this be an ex post facto law?

Additionally, what is a "standard color"? If it excludes paint only, is pink AR furniture or a candy-color Cavalry Arms AR lower okay? What about pink, single-shot, .22LR Cricket rifles?

Det. Tom Willdigg, president of the Nassau County Detectives Association, said the bill could save officers' lives and the union would support even a state ban on painted guns.
COULD. So could unwarranted, no-knock raids. Just because we could, doesn't mean we should.

"It's been around for many, many years that criminals would try to paint their guns to disguise them to look like toys," he said.
I suppose it's possible, but I've never heard of it, even when I lived in NYC. Evidence, please.

Green couldn't say whether any painted guns had been recovered in Nassau or Suffolk.
Probably because they haven't recovered any.

What about knives? Will it be illegal to paint a knife?
 
The mayor of Milwaukee Wisconsin was on the news in the last few weeks ranting about the same thing. They must all be on some panic and hysteria gun control group's email list.
 
I'm going to say it again... except for airsoft, toy guns that look like real guns are RARELY sold anymore. Moreover, I've known since like 1985, when rumors abounded about the little kid in a NY ghetto who was shot by NYPD, that you don't point a toy gun at a police officer. But seriously, if the kid is over 13, I'd just make the assumption that he has a real gun.
 
This is just amazing lunacy.

"Any time our police officers are put in danger, it's a grave concern," Levy said in a statement yesterday.


The quote should have been:

"Any time I can seem to do something I can get brownie points for I'll do it whether it actually does anything useful or not."
 
How would they distinguish a "brightly" painted gun from a non-brightly painted one? Things like laws have to be very specific. Will they pick certain ranges of visible light wavelengths? Will they then hire physicists to determine where a color resides in the visible light spectrum for those borderline cases? I assume lemon yellow will be banned but how about a soothing dark mustard? Will a dark beige be considered a brown? I don't even want to get into the "mushroom" question. How about hunter green? And where does green end and teal begin? Will there be teams of interior decorators with fabulous color sense hired as consultants to confer on those close calls? Will the Dutch Boy paint color book become standard issue for law enforcement? Will there be classes given at the LEO cadet academies on how to properly identify vermillions and magentas? Will cops be comparing swatches at crime scenes?

During the trial:

"I don't think it should be considered brightly painted in and of itself. However, God only knows what made him think it would go with that tie...."

"Your honor, I object! How well my client color coordinates is not the issue at hand here!"

"Sustained. Move it along, counselor."

After closing arguments but before the verdict in the ADA's office:

"Well, what do you think?"

"I don't know; it's gone to the jury."

"Which way do you think they'll go?"

"It's hard to tell. I think juror number seven is leaning towards conviction but, in voir dire, juror number two said that he felt Georgia O'Keefe's work was somewhat subdued. And then there's the guy who used to make Mardi Gras beads for a living; he's the real wild card. At this point, it's anybody's guess...."
 
The problem with this law is that it is "vague and ambiguous".... As mentioned before, where does one color end and another begin? And what about color blind people? Could this be brought to trial under the ADA provisions against discrimination?

Purely subjective laws get thrown out because of smaller problems... can't wait to see this go to court!
 
"Any time our police officers are put in danger, it's a grave concern," Levy said in a statement yesterday.

I hate this kind of thinking. You know what else puts officers in danger? Pretty much everything...that's why we give them guns!

Also, can't this logic be applied to letting officers search vehicles or people without cause, even beyond what Terry Searches allow now? Or even greater discression on pulling over cars or questioning people who haven't done anything wrong?

Can't you say "Racial profiling is good because it helps protect our officers. They are much safer if they can shoot first and ask questions later once they see the person is a black man!"
 
Maybe they should require all guns to be painted bright colors. Maybe it would prevent those holding black wallets etc. from being shot. :scrutiny:
 
The mayor of Milwaukee Wisconsin was on the news in the last few weeks ranting about the same thing. They must all be on some panic and hysteria gun control group's email list.

Democratic (sic) party talking points. No one seems to have sent those idiots the message they're supposed to wait until after January 20, 2009 to drag out the socialist banners.
 
As a retired NYPD officer, my thoughts are this. Paint your gun whatever color you want. My gun does not discriminate against any color. If I have probable cause to believe that my life or the life of another is in imminent danger of serious physical injury or death, and no retreat is possible, deadly physical force will be used against you.
 
Lets be honest, this isn't about going after "criminal guns" this is a full on frontal attack on competition shooters.

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home4_competition.jpg
don_jims_gun.jpg
GrandMasterBlueMain06_800w.jpg
 
If someone is pointing what looks like an Uzi or a 1911 or a Colt Single action at me, I really don't care WHAT color it is, I'm shooting back! Anyone who points a gun-shaped item at ANYONE should be on a suicide watch. And anyone who doesn't know that clearly hasn't been paying attention, and is not subject to the protections allowed by what we used to call "Common Sense".

And it's not what any piece of legislation does that matters.............it's what it APPEARS to do.

PJ
 
harvster said:
Maybe they should require all guns to be painted bright colors. Maybe it would prevent those holding black wallets etc. from being shot.
Heh, I e-mailed that to the editor. I wonder if it gets printed. I have family in Nassau and Suffolk counties, I wonder if any of them read that trash.
 
You know, I just realized. Here in NY we are stuck with a may-issue pistol permit system where you have to get fingerprinted and background checked and all sorts of other crap, and they're typically not terribly keen on giving you a permit, and unless I'm mistaken, those counties have a three-year duration on their permits.

Nevermind the statewide CORBIS ballistic-fingeprinting database and the fact permitholders on average commit less than one crime a year in this state.

Kinda puts some perspective on things, right?
 
Elm Creek Smith says:

I'd say look at her shot groups before telling her she's "doing it wrong." It's an AR. It's not like they recoil.

Firstly, I'm not sure how you can "tell her, a picture" anything, and second, I was asking a question. Additionally, recoil is subjective, it depends on who is shooting the rifle and what their opinion is......:cool:
 
That's Amanda Elsenboss.
http://www.odcmp.org/0807/default.asp?page=EJRHPCLINIC2
Amanda Elsenboss was the overall high woman with an aggregate score of 1925-62X. She also placed third overall for the week.
Picture on the far bottom left shows her with the "purple" rifle.

My shooting skills are teh suck compared to hers. And with a score like that, she's holding the rifle better than I am, at least for her purposes.
 
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