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Wayne Fincher is out of jail!

Discussion in 'Legal' started by jlbraun, Jul 11, 2007.

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  1. jlbraun

    jlbraun Member

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    For those not following, he's a guy that made a bunch of unregistered Sten guns post-86, didn't register them, and told the Feds about them. Now, he's out of jail.

    From Of Arms and the Law:

    http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2007/07/fincher-out-of-jail.html

     
  2. B.D. Turner

    B.D. Turner Member

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    So this guy was manufacturing machine guns without a license? Can someone fill in the rest of us on this story?
     
  3. jlbraun

    jlbraun Member

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    http://usvfincher.blogspot.com/

    Fincher's some sort of self-styled "Militia Commander" that was actually liked by the community. He made a couple of Sten guns and (literally) told the Feds that he had done so. They came out and arrested him. He's trying to provoke a SCOTUS review.

    During his trial, the sitting judge ordered that neither he nor his lawyer was allowed to so much as say the words "Second Amendment".
     
  4. buzz_knox

    buzz_knox Member

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    If the defense presented a good faith argument that the 2nd A was a valid defense or should be a valid defense notwithstanding current interpretations, then he has a nice due process argument on appeal.
     
  5. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    As much as I admire Fincher's liberty orientation, he walked right into a trap, and sat down in jail behind the last guy who thought this _exact_ _same_ stunt was a clever idea 15ish years ago.

    Legal stunts are NOT for amateurs, and this case is a damned shame. It got nobody nothing.
     
  6. romma

    romma Member

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    Except probably some serious time in a federal Pokey...
     
  7. Geno

    Geno Member

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    Kevorkian did the same. He thought he would get a SCOTUS review...he didn't.

    :(
     
  8. nobody_special

    nobody_special member

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    That's so true... I got nothing from it.:p
     
  9. B.D. Turner

    B.D. Turner Member

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    OK checked the link but I don't see all the hooplah about the case.
    He is charged with possession of 2 BAR's,9 Sten's, and a sawed off shotgun as I remember. So it appears he was manufacturing machine guns which is illegal without a federal manufacturing license. Are the citizens of Arkansas allowed by state law to own registered machine guns? If so why didn't this guy pay the tax and buy a legal machine gun. From what I read it appears that he "may" have been building these weapons to sell. Based on the number of weapons alone. He also fired his attorney. I hope he is well trained on law and procedures in federal court. (Tim McVeigh didn't do too well)
    I do not want to loose my second ammendment rights because some guy thinks he is Perry Mason. Is there more to this case?
     
  10. FeebMaster

    FeebMaster Member

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    Harder to get charged for illegally manufacturing machine guns that way. Probably not impossible though.
     
  11. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    Awareness. and questions.
    There are several questions that are brought up.
    It is easy to dismiss him as a nutty militia wannabe.
    I am not a lawyer. I did read some of the laws pointed out in his "silver bullet". As I understand, under his State law there are provisions for the Militia having these weapons. He was recognized as a Militia Leader.
    He was not hiding anything, All was out in the open. The local Sheriff attended meetings, and no one in authority saw it as a threat.
    He was a pillar of the community. Even praised by the judge as a good man.
    This is more of a question of the FED overriding state law, as well as the 2nd amendment. He was not allowed to present any of this as a defense.
    His activities had been known for years.
    Developers wanted his property, he would not sell the family property.
    This seems like more of an attempt to take his land.
    Lots of questions.
    Awareness.
     
  12. buzz_knox

    buzz_knox Member

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    He was trying to pull a Rosa Parks (intentionally violating the law in order to force legal/social change). Unfortunately, he forgot that such actions tend to only work when 1) society is primed for change and 2) there are sufficient people in support of the act that the authorities determine it's political (or actual) suicide to not go along.
     
  13. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    There is information here,
    http://www.arkansasmilitia.com/

    Silver Bullet pdf.
    http://www.arkansasmilitia.com/thesilverbullet/thesilverbullet.pdf
     
  14. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "Militia of the Washington County, Arkansas operate under the flag of Arkansas and will not tolerate any invasion by agencies hostile to our sovereign State of Arkansas."

    He wants to use the 2nd Amendment as a defense? So much for his claim of state sovereignty.
     
  15. pacodelahoya

    pacodelahoya Member

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    I think it was in the 1800's, that we started losing our 2nd Amendment rights.
    It's been a slow but steady decline ever since. Some think, well, gee Wally, I have a state issued ccw and I can buy any new gun I want as long as it is not a machine gun just by filling out this form for the federal government.

    I think the key words are "Shall not be infringed"

    If you got to ask and fill out forms it's a privilege, not a right. Some of you may be fooled, I'm not, I say good on him, I wish I had his nads!
     
  16. Frog48

    Frog48 Member

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    This tactic might have garnered more public support if the person in question wasnt some clown that masqueraded as a "Lt. Commander" of a separatist militia...

    Dont get me wrong, I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with citizen militias, but the general public doesnt share our sentiment. It would have been much more effective if the test subject was someone a little more "normal".

    We have to take PR/marketing value into consideration.
     
  17. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    Making up stories now?
    Nowhere was it ever a "separatist"militia.
    The local Sheriff was at the Militia meetings. They were acting openly within the law.
    Hollis Fincher has been described as a gentle man, and a pillar of the community.
     
  18. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe Member

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    I belong to a militia group. So am I "abnormal" in your eyes?
     
  19. doubleg

    doubleg Member

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    The point of the Second Amendment was to give people the means by which to over throw the government. If our firearms are modified to not perform as well as the governments full auto ones, in result the constitution is definitely being violated. He could argue that in court.

    Do you think our for fathers would have let people alter their muzzle loaders to take longer to reload than the ones the government had? :mad:
     
  20. jlbraun

    jlbraun Member

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    Has everyone missed the fact that Fincher, being prosecuted for the federal crime of manufacturing machineguns without a license and possessing them without a tax stamp, a crime that usually carries a 10 year prison sentence, has been released?

    Something else is going on here. :scrutiny:
     
  21. ServiceSoon

    ServiceSoon Member

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    Good for Wayne! He isnt a criminal. He means no harm to anybody. Wayne just wants the US government to follow its laws, the constitution and then Wayne will follow laws for citizens.


    Hold on a sec...let me put my shiny hat on....Ok, I'm listening. Seriously, that is a very good question. He was found guilty of a "serious" crime; what gives? Click for Court Criminal Docket with disposition.
     
  22. joab

    joab Member

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    Motions were filed to let him out while seeking appeal, not all that unusual and also to allowed to remain free on bail until he is scheduled to report for prison duty
    Apparently at least one of those motions worked

    All I can find is a sentence of 78 to 97 months two years probation and a $1000 fine no mention of anyone stealing his land

    Good for him whether his attempts are effective or not he made a stand that most of us would not think of making even after all the posturing we do on this board
    Men like this are far more deserving of our respect than the typical internet warrior spouting off about "The Shrub" and traitorus LEOs

    And yes a Lt Commander in a militia will always be turned into a freak by the freak hungry media
     
  23. joab

    joab Member

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  24. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Member

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    Not really news since the fact he didn't testify and the reason for it (Fincher wanted to argue jury nullification) has been discussed in just about every thread on Fincher.

    It basically comes down to the fact that the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals has already ruled that as a matter of law, the Second Amendment does not protect an individual right to own firearms.

    Under old concepts of English common law, there is a law/fact distinction. Judges decide matters of law and juries decide what the facts are. Under this tradition, juries cannot decide matters of law and judges may not decide matters of fact unless the parties allow it. Juries certainly can't overrule earlier decisions of a higher court, so judges do not allow those arguments to be heard because they might predjudice the jury to decide based on the defendants arguments of what the law should be instead of past decisions by the courts on what the law is. If a defendant wishes to argue the law is wrong, he must do so to the Circuit Court of Appeals or ultimately the Supreme Court and Fincher will have that opportunity if he appeals; but considering the Eighth Circuit has already said "No" to that exact question within the last 15 years, he will likely lose.

    This is part of traditional common law that predates our own Constitution. However, the first Supreme Court of this nation ruled that juries in the US are empowered to decide matters of both law and fact. That decision stood for about 80 years until a later Supreme Court decision basically questioned whether the original decision had even been recorded correctly.

    If you search the old Hollis Wayne Fincher threads, you can find everything you would want to know on the subject.
     
  25. Kentak

    Kentak Member

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    Good info, BR, thanks.

    K
     
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