WCF nomenclature

[Catpop]

In the olden days, Winchester had a few rifles stamped __ WCF.
I personally own a few. Studying this a little bit, it seems it was more related to the older short blackpowder cartridges used in the 1873, 1876 and 1892 models.
I know (or think I know) that:
22 WCF ? 1885
25 WCF 25-20 1893
30 WCF 30-30 1895
32 WCF 32-20 1882
38 WCF 38-40 1874
44 WCF 44-40 1873
30-30 doesn't actually fit the bill as it came in the 1894 long action, but it was marked 30WCF and originally loaded in blackpowder.
Supposedly the first number was the caliber and the second number was the grains of blackpowder load. i.e., 44 caliber over 40 grains of blackpowder, etc.

Does anyone else have any thing to add (correct) here? Why did Winchester get away from the WCF designation in later years- change to smokeless maybe?

Thanks in advance, Catpop

 

[Scooter22]

It stands for Winchester Center Fire. Back when these cartridges came out there were rimfire handgun and rifle cartridges still in use.

 

[rcmodel]

And the 30-30 Win wasn't originally loaded with black powder.

It first appeared in Winchester's catalog No. 55, dated August, 1895. as the .30 WINCHESTER SMOKELESS.

It was never factory loaded with black powder.

See this:
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/3030history.htm

rc

 

[sexybeast]

In the olden days, Winchester had a few rifles stamped __ WCF.
I personally own a few. Studying this a little bit, it seems it was more related to the older short blackpowder cartridges used in the 1873, 1876 and 1892 models.
I know (or think I know) that:
22 WCF ? 1885
25 WCF 25-20 1893
30 WCF 30-30 1895
32 WCF 32-20 1882
38 WCF 38-40 1874
44 WCF 44-40 1873
30-30 doesn't actually fit the bill as it came in the 1894 long action, but it was marked 30WCF and originally loaded in blackpowder.
Supposedly the first number was the caliber and the second number was the grains of blackpowder load. i.e., 44 caliber over 40 grains of blackpowder, etc.

WCF=Winchester Center Fire
Lets see, first we will start with 30wcf which became 30-30. It was never a black powder round, it is seen as the first commercial smokless powder round. this may or may not be true but it was the first real sucessful commercial smokless round.
The three model rifles you mentioned were all chambered in black powder cartridges only along with the 1885 and 1886 models. The 1876 and 1886 were not "short' cartridges, they were very long and powderful "game" calibers.
The model 1894 [later named the model 94 after WW1] was chambered in five calibers, 38-55, 32-40,[both blackpowder] 30wcf [smokless] 25-35, and later after 1900 the 32winchester special round.
Back before WW1 winchester and other firearms manufacturers wished to only build rifles that were chambered in "their" cartridges which they also produced.
Now try as they might, they were not always sucessful when some cartridges became very popular. 45-70 is an example of this. Another one in the model 1894 was the 38-55 which was a Ballard cartridge. Winchester simply re-named it.
Word has it that Marlin which was a fierce competitor of Winchester wished to chamber their rifles in the 30wcf round. But there was no way they were going to stamp WCF on their rifle, so they re-named it 30-30 and it caught on.
Some of the earlier Winchester rifles like the 1876 were only chambered in winchesters propriatary cartridges, but starting with the model 1885 winchester would make whatever one ordered although they would have preferred chambering rifles in their own rounds. It was not unusual to order a rifle and ammo straight from Winchester and having them delivered together sighted in for that particular round.
If you are really interested in the history of how some of these old cartridges evolved I suggest you go to the Winchester Collectors forum. There is a moderator named Bert H who is probably the formost authority on winchester rifles along with many others who is a historical encyclopedia on this subject along with John Browning designs.

 

[Catpop]

Thanks to all for all the wealth of info. And as usual I stand corrected in some areas. Shame on me, i have more research to do.
Scooter 22, good point on rim fire and centerfire being offered at the same time, hence WCF.
Thinking back, I think it was the 1876 (still toggle link) that they made take longer cartridges, but it would not handle the increased pressures. The Browning designed 1886 did overcome this problem.
Thanks again, Catpop

 

[Laphroaig]

Is it possible that 25 WCF is 23-35 rather than 25-20?

Laphroaig

 

[sexybeast]

By my aging memory I seem to remember that 25wcf was usually 25-20 which was a black powder round [originally], It was chambered in the 1892 lever action and 1885 single shot. Don't think it was chambered in the 1873 though.
The 25-35 is simply a necked down 30-30 and was introduced as a smokless cartridge in the later 1890's I do think it was referred to as the 25-35wcf to avoid confusion with the 25wcf.