We had a special guest at the range...

[R127]

what a revelation...

Why does it not suprise me that the Praetorian Guard is in favor of banning yet another item? You'd figure with the impotence they've displayed throughout the "war on drugs!" they'd realize that small items are easily smuggled and readily available to anyone who wants them.

 

[Pain]

Food for Thought

Let me Just add a little food for thought here. We cannot keep Heroin, Crack, Ice, Meth, Pot, etc..... From The BG's hands whats to say that we could keep these or other type of AP rnds out of their hands. Banning these does nothing for the BG's that really want to obtain them and have the money or means to do so. The same people that smuggle other contraband into this country could just add something like this to their order and then the BGs have it anyway! Just my .02 cents

 

[Serpico]

I don't think you can compare drugs, which has a market, to armor piercing rounds...criminal are not that gun savvy as to try and find a special round..they shoot what they get....if that gun and it's ammo found it's way here any BGs who bought or stole one would probably do so without even knowing it can pierce armor...armor piercing rounds for most regular calibers have already been banned and do not know of any bad guys aquiring them on the black market like crack cocaine..

 

[Schuey2002]

Cool gun, Gunhead.. I wonder if I'll ever get to actually wrap my fingers around one.:banghead:

[Well, since I can neither PM or email you.. What would it take to get you to drag your H&K P2000 review (w/ pics) over onto this site? I'm sure that a few (non-HKPRO) members over here would enjoy seeing it..]

 

[Pain]

It's not the everyday Crackheads that have nothing to lose are you have to worry about. Most of them would sell the gun for more crack before they could learn to rack the slide back. It is the Smugglers and the high profile drug dealers (you LEOs know most of them on your beats) that are looking at life prison sentences if they get popped again, that do have the knowledge and connections to acquire ammo of this type and use it. These guys are the ones that are willing to do anything to avoid going to Jail and that means shooting a cop if they have to. It is foolish to think that there is'nt quite a few guys in your town or my town that are'nt driving around now with a magazine full of AP rnds. Does an ammo ban keep them from getting it ??? Nope....... Those are the guys that im talking about .Again Just my .02

 

[R127]

as a matter of fact...

It's not spoken of but well understood by many in the appropriate circles that it is no big deal to find an underground gunsmith ready, willing and able to convert your semi auto whatever into full auto firepower. Explosives are available, as are fragmentation grenades. Armor piercing and incendiary ammo can be had on the grey and black market. There's a guy who shows up at a private range not far from me who shoots Black Talons like they're going out of style.

This stuff has been and always will be available to those who really want it. You could ban all ammo tomorrow and I'd be rolling my own with homemade powder and reloaded primers by next evening... but that's just because I'm too frugal and wary to simply purchase the genuine article from underground sources. The cat's out of the bag, no ban is going to change that. It's just a matter of who wants it, and why.

 

[coop57]

Gumshoe,
Your position would imply that the Constitution/Bill of Rights is an living document. It is not. If you want to change the Constitution/Bill of Rights then there are legal methods to do so. It is not an easy process to change the Constitution/Bill of rights, and this is a good thing. Until then the people retain the right to pocess weapons which will enable them to defeat their government if it become necessary.

 

[Gewehr98]

Betcha' Gumshoe would just cringe to know...

That those of us who reload for our 7.62x25 CZ-52 pistols also load .223 sabot rounds.

And those of us who buy CZ-52 pistols didn't buy them for the purpose of shooting law enforcement personnel.

R127, you can't use the Black Talon ammunition as an example. It was never banned, that's a common misconception. Winchester voluntarily stopped marketing it, after the late Senator Moynahan made a big issue about the talons "buzz-sawing" their way through their target. Never mind that the bullet had to travel 16 inches forward to get one complete rotation, if we use the common .40 S&W round.


Wonder what parent cartridge that little Russian .22 zinger sprang from, maybe ammo is only a forming die and case trimming away...

(Anybody remember the ballyhoo about the .224BOZ?)

 

[gumshoe4]

Sorry, been out of town again.

Well, I'm glad we had this discussion. You guys have definitely changed my outlook so that I now understand the rules. Here they are:

1. Cops are fascists/Praetorian Guards whose sole purpose is to keep the "civilians in line". They serve no other purpose and are all alike.

2. I volunteered to be a law enforcement officer.

3. AP ammo of various stripes can be made/purchased/obtained elsewhere now.

4. Due to #1-#3 above, I am considered by you to be expendable and therefore should have no particular concern for my personal safety despite the uniqueness of my job which puts me in harm's way on a regular basis. I am here solely to take a bullet for you.

5. The Constitution says that anyone can have anything they want, so there are no limits (I'm still a little confused about this one, Penforhire, because I saw that you were actually drawing a line about what should and should not be available-I wonder if anyone else here agrees with you?).

You've made your points very clearly and I have learned that I am an arrogant elitist. I'm glad we cleared that up. I feel better now. Thanks, guys. I love serving a grateful public, but a simple "Thank you" would have been sufficient.

Bob

 

[mrming]

despite my better judgement, I'm going to attempt a response.


Most people in this country, Don't Like Cops.




Most people in this country, don't like or want most of our laws.



Most people in this country, don't like our tax levels.



Most people in this country, don't live in middle-class suburbs.

My point? Many people, if not most in this country disagree with some of 'our' laws to the point of ignoring them. Its the job of the police to attempt to enforce them. That they are chronicly underfunded, overworked, and seperated out from a large part of society by the nature of their work doesn't help any. Add (pick your percentage) PD's resorting to drug busts/meter maids/0 tolerance speed traps to raise funding, and you get our present situation.

What most people see of police, is someone pulling them over yet-again out of a crowded road while they are doing no more than the rest of traffic.. with the only obvious difference being they drive something that looks sporty.


(A few) People who can think beyond their noses appreciate not having to sleep in watches and post a nightly armed guard at their residence. For that, thank you sir.

For being societies 'tech help desk' regarding laws/regulations that do not significantly enhance public safety; nor can be removed due to a small minority passing/maintaining the penal code.. and enforcing all that which 'only felons and morally corrupt would want legal', I am truely sorry.

But, police, by definition, are the point of interface between society and legislation. And the less in-sync legislation is with the needs of the society, the worse things will be.


However. I see no effort by the highway safety office to eliminate all vechiles with more than 200 HP because.. the only thing they could possibly be good for is breaking the speed limit and attempting to evade LEO's. To be blunt. Its reasonable for you to defend yourself. Its reasonable for you to seek out means to better protect yourself.

It is not reasonable to expect any part of society to form itself to the safety needs of your chosen career. Thats what the ATF is doing. Whats next? Manditory blood screenings and tattos displaying your health records so paramedics are 'safe' from accidental infection ? All buildings required to post hazmat/flammibility notices with monthly compliance inspections to keep fire-fighters from undue risk ? I don't pretend to have answers. But where is the line? And if your implying it stops at your safety in your career.. why?

 

[kbellis3]

Let us get one thing straight Bob, most people here appreciate LEO duing the risky job of protecting us from the street thugs and other crooks. However, we don't appreciate LEO blindly enforcing immoral laws that by their nature limit personal freedom and endager the rights of the citizens. We don't appreciate you advocating for more laws that limit our right of self defense in a dangerous world, especially since you are not under the same limits nor are forced to arm yourself with firearms that purchased from your own saving, if non-Leos are allowed to carry a gun at all in your state/municipality.

Now consider our point of view when we hear you state you are glad that this new firearm is only going to be sold to cop or soldiers, what we infer from these comments is that you are glad that we peons are not going to be allowed to use or own this firearm because it might endager your life.

When you are in trouble your fellow LEOs will rush to your aid with every weapon in the PD arsenal and every cop on the job in you district. When we are in trouble we are alone, armed with whatever we can acuire from our own funds, equiped with only the training that we can afford from our own limited income.

You on the otherhand have the benefit of department training and the PD weapons buying power to help you acuire firearms for what in some cases is a quarter of what we "Civilians" have to pay for the same firearm, that is if the pols in your state dain allow us to own firearms or handguns at all.

You also don't have to pay what can be several hundred dollars or more to try and obtain a CCW, you have the benefit of carry on your badge. We have to pray that we live in states where CCW's are legal and that the pols will not strip uf of the "priveledge of CCWs".

So when we hear you say that some firearms and ammo should be restricted from non-LEO or military hands we get just a little ticked off at you arrogance.

Kyle

 

[Mal H]

This "debate" has gone on long enough here and certainly won't come to a satisfactory conclusion in the forseeable future. It's not that the secondary topic (which has now become the primary topic) is out-of-bounds for THR, but it is for this particular forum. If anyone wishes to continue the current discussion, please do so in General Discussion or perhaps more appropriately in Legal and Political.

Case (not) closed.