We Were AR Bashers Once, And Young

[JQP]

I...want LMT's .308 offering badly.

Initial reports from the British using the LMT .308 are that it's an amazingly accurate, rugged and damn reliable rifle.

The British finally have some rifles that are grade A Prime, made right here in the United States.

(LMT beat out HK to win the procurement contract from the British Defense Department, after rigorous testing)

 

[henschman]

I like the adaptability and accuracy potential of the separate upper/lower receiver design of the AR, and I like how easy and comfortable it is to mount optics on a flat top receiver.

I am just waiting for somebody to make an AR-style rifle in 7.62x51 with all of these features, that also has a gas piston, reciprocating bolt handle, light profile chrome lined barrel that is at least 20" long, with at least the sight radius and handguard length of a 20" barreled AR, that weighs under 10 pounds. And they need to make spare parts available.

When somebody makes this, maybe it can finally be said that the AR has surpassed the M-14 as a battle rifle.


You are right about the Pentagon forcing an obsolete cartridge on the military with the M-14 though. They did the same thing with the M-1 for that matter. We should have gone to something like the .276 Pedersen a LONG time ago. This was the cartridge the M-1 Garand was originally designed for, and it would have been an even more capable killing machine if it was. Something like the M-14 in a cartridge like that would have been legendary. The FN-FAL was originally designed with a similar .280 cartridge, but that was scrapped too. The decision to force 7.62x51 on our military, and by default all of NATO as well, set cardridge design back for a long time, and this round is STILL in service with no indications that it will be replaced anytime soon.

And then they FUBARed things up again with the 5.56... the decisions behind it's adoption were also made by suits who know nothing about combat or marksmanship. I recall that one of the central assumptions behind adopting a light-recoiling tiny cartridge meant to be fired on full auto was that "more bullets in the air result in more casualties." If they consulted Col. Cooper, or anybody else who knew anything about winning firefights, they would have been informed that firepower is not how many rounds you can put downrange in a given time... it is how many rounds you can put ON TARGET in a given time. Investing in better instruction on the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship would have produced much better results than giving everybody a full auto carbine and telling them to spray and pray. Now, the armed forces are trained to fire on semi auto, and almost all 5.56mm service rifles are fitted with trigger groups to specifically PREVENT full auto fire because it was discovered (surprise surprise) that "spray and pray" wastes ammo and does not produce casualties.

How FUBARED can you get?

 

[Quentin]

Let's see... 50 years and counting for the 5.56 AR, most of it as the US Rifle. Something must be right about it!

 

[benEzra]

I am just waiting for somebody to make an AR-style rifle in 7.62x51 with all of these features, that also has a gas piston, reciprocating bolt handle, light profile chrome lined barrel that is at least 20" long, with at least the sight radius and handguard length of a 20" barreled AR, that weighs under 10 pounds. And they need to make spare parts available.

A semiauto SCAR-H LB would come very close to your criteria (but is very pricey):

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=fnf045&gid=fng007&mid=FNM0112

Piston, 8.23 pounds empty, reciprocating handle, 20" barrel, .308, AR-like ergonomics.

I personally like DI .223 AR's, but the SCAR-H is a very interesting rifle.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

I've always loved the AR15, and in 5.56, but if I were to want a larger caliber, I would be happy to try out 6.5 or 6.8. If only the prices were decent.

That said, I like the standardized parts in the AR15 platform, as opposed to the larger receiver .308's, etc...

 

[Rancho Relaxo]

I'm not an AR fan, but I can understand the feeling of holding off on something, getting it and being surprised at how much you like it. I held off on Mosin Nagant rifles for a long time for various reasons. Now I've got two and they are quite fun. I really enjoy owning a rifle that may have seen combat in the worst theater of battle in history.

 

[henschman]

A semiauto SCAR-H LB would come very close to your criteria (but is very pricey):

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/fi...07&mid=FNM0112



Piston, 8.23 pounds empty, reciprocating handle, 20" barrel, .308, AR-like ergonomics.

I personally like DI .223 AR's, but the SCAR-H is a very interesting rifle.

Yeah, the SCAR is the closest thing I know of to my battle rifle requirements. It just has those ridiculous stubby little carbine-length handguards over a long barrel, which doesn't agree with some of the holds and positions I like, and gives it the same crappy sight radius as an M-4 (iron sights are pretty important to me when it comes to battle rifles). The weight they were able to get those things down to is absolutely amazing, though, and I hear good things about their reliability.

If somebody would make something like the SCAR-H, but with rifle-length handguards that are modular, instead of quad rail, and make it take KAC/DPMS/Magpul pattern mags, then I would whip out the plastic and buy one without even looking at the price tag.

Maybe I'm too picky, but I'm holding out for something better before I dump the M-14.

I also like having a .223 DI AR though... if only so that I can take ammo and parts off of the zombies when the SHTF!

 

[wnycollector]

My first centerfire rifle was a Norinco SKS (that I still have by the way). Twenty years plus ago, you could pick one up for $79 whereas Colt AR-15 Sporters were ~$500-550. I picked up a paratrooper SKS and a Mak-90 soon afterwords. Thus started my love affair of com-block rifles that is still going strong today. Who cared, that I couldn't shoot accurately past 250 yards (minute of NATO soldier)...all three of the a fore mentioned rifles cost me less than one Colt AR-15! Who needs that overpriced chunk of aluminum and plastic when you had boatloads of cheap commie rifles and surplus 7.62x39 for $0.05/round!

My real problem was that I always wanted an AR-15, but back then I was a poor college student and just couldn't afford one. When I got out of college, and got my first "real" job, my priority was a house and starting a family, again the AR-15 itch just couldn't get scratched at that point. Finally, just before the AWB hit, I got enough cash together to buy used AR-15 Less than a year later I was "down-sized" and needed $$$ for a new baby on the way, plus mortgage and car payments...that necessitated that the pre-ban Colt SP-1 get sold.

Me and the AR-15 parted ways for the next 15 years, since I had a new addiction to feed...surplus bolt action rifles. I went to gun shows and bought all types of Enfields, Mausers and Nagants. How can one live with out owning every model of Mosin-Nagant ever made by each of the com-block countries that ever manufactured that pattern of rifle?????

Last spring, I decided to get another AR. I picked up a Del-ton 20" government profile w/ A2 stock as an homage to my old SP-1. Flash forward six months, I have two lowers and four uppers and just love how accurate and versatile a platform the AR-15 is. The AR-15 makes me feel like a kid again, it's like playing with Lego's that go bang

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I am one of those guys that loves firearms but have never been beyond lever gun parameters. Me? Desire an EBR? No Way!

At 50 years old I finally started looking at the AR threads and this one in particular. Being unfamiliar with the platform I wouldn't know where to start but lately I am noticing an itch... and these threads ain't helpin..

 

[Rail Driver]

The AR-15 makes me feel like a kid again, it's like playing with Lego's that go bang

That is sig worthy. I know that feeling well

 

[wnycollector]

Quote:
The AR-15 makes me feel like a kid again, it's like playing with Lego's that go bang

That is sig worthy.

I may just do that

 

[Panzercat]

I'm still not horribly fond of the AR... That said, i could be convinced if somebody dropped an Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf in my lap

 

[sappyg]

AR's. you either love to hate them or live to love them.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

OOOOK

I can't resist.

If any of you look at my web site you can read some but I will post a little tid bit here.

Please dont think my arival here was to pimp stuff, NOOOOOO got better things to do.

Several years back I used to hang out over at ARFCOM

The subject of the 50 caliber AR was alive and well. I bought an upper that was chambered for the 50 AE round.

Really fun until the bolt went away. (about 25 rounds so I called the maker and they sent me another bolt, got 100 rounds before it broke.

Decided that the idea was good (Big bore AR-15 Platform) but the application sucked.

This was about the same time frame that Bill Alexander was fooling with the Beowulf.

I had never heard of Bill or the Wulf and so off to the shop I went.

Ordered up some 7.62x39 M16 Bolts, modified about 100 50AE cases so they had a 7.62x39 Bolt face and then off the the rodeo with it.

The magazine that came with the upper did not have a way to lock the bolt open on the last shot.

So a new mag follower was needed as well.

Testing went on for one entire summer (2003) and then I contacted Starline brass company and we had a test batch of 1000 rounds of the then Experimental (wildcat)
502 Thunder Sabre produced.

The cartridge was internally modified some along the way to the final design.

In early 2004 we had a finished product that worked perfectly.

The Thunder Sabre was at Shot show for the 2004 and the 2005 shows.

To date the sales have been fine, reliability has been excellent with zero failures.

One local fellow has over 40,000 YES 40K rounds through his Sabre without any issues.

The cartridge delivers a 335 grain slug at 1750 FPS at the muzzle and is extremely accurate to 125 yards ( a rainbow rock)

We are seeing some lateral sales of these now that they have been on the market for a while.

We have a few in the hands of Law Enforcement for use in Drug teams and two that went to a contractor overseas ??????/ I can't comment on who.

The 502 cartridge makes a real gun out of these little Poodle shooters.
This comment was made by an army colonel that shot one at a demonstration.

Not a 308 long range gun, never designed to be.

It will blow the side out of an engine block at mid ranges (40-50 yards)
Will stop a vested drug puke right quick (like using a sledge hammer on a mouse)

There is an excellent writeup by Patrick sweeny in the book on the AR-15

If you read the article, when starting off, the text says "Cloud Mt Armory" located in Utah (typo) then you see the closeup of the receiver and the info on the side thats says OREGON .

Yesss we caught it, but only after it was in print for a few months.

I met Pat sweeney at shot and he arranged to get a Sabre on loan for few months, that stretched to over a year and the gun ended up traveling all over the country.

Just a few tidbits on the Sabre.

Again Im not here to pimp the gun.

I will answer any questions if asked.

Just one of those projects that caught my interest, so I did it.

The web site I believe still has a shooting video.

Snowy