Weak spot on smaller frame SAA in 38 spl

[Cump]

I picked up two matching Cimarron Peacemaker Juniors in 38 spl. Unfired and near perfect condition. Still factory crud from 2005. Nice nickel finish with deep blued screws.

I find the balance interesting. We'll see how they shoot. Definitely easier for my kid to hold steady than a full-size saa.

They have 80% frame and six shot cylinders. Noticeable differences to my untrained eye: the forcing cone barely protrudes into the frame window and there is no cylinder bushing. Firing pins are frame mounted.

I'm planning on light loads. I have single actions in 357 and 45 colt so don't need to make these something they are not. But as usual, I'm curious – why wouldn't these be able to handle 38+P? (They are not rated for it.) What is the weak spot? Of course, they are thinner in frame and between chambers, but there is still a good deal of steel.

 

[MCgunner]

Might be the quality or hardness of the steel they're made from? Might just be lawyers. Just guessing. Maybe someone will know a real answer.

A thread like this would be enhanced by a picture, ya know.

 

[Old Fuff]

Even though the bolt is offset, in a 6-shot cylinder the weakest spot is between the chamber wall and bolt slots.

The revolver was likely proofed for standard .38 Special cartridges.

Depending on what it really is (some Plus-P is sales hype, but some of it isn't) a Plus-P load is unlikely to cause a KABOOM! but it might leave you with an expanded chamber(s) that would translate into a ruined cylinder. Unless they're is a substantial reason to do so, I suggest you don't used Plus-P loads and stick to more modest "cowboy loads" for which it was intended.

What is more important then chamber wall thickness is what particular steel alloy is the cylinder made of, and how (or maybe "if") it was heat treated.

 

[Wil Terry]

WHO SAYS they are not suitable for 38SPL +P loads ??
PS: forgot to note, the " weak spot " is ALWAYS---ALWAYS!!!--- the cylinder bolt slot. In any revolver.

 

[Cump]

Just a question out of curiosity. Only will load light for longevity of gun and brass. and since i'll often be shooting it with a youngster.

Unfortunately my camera is shot and phone camera is no good: but here's a picture of a comparable Uberti Stallion cylinder.

 

[Old Fuff]

So far as I know all .38 Special revolvers that are Plus-P certified are marked to show it. Be that as it might be, these downsized Single Actions were intended for Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS) that represent a competition which usually uses under-loaded ammunition.

One can of course, and probably should, check with the importer (Cimarron Arms) or maker (Uberti) for an informed recommendation. I suspect I know what the answer will be.

 

[Cump]

pic

 

[Cump]

WHO SAYS they are not suitable for 38SPL +P loads ??
PS: forgot to note, the " weak spot " is ALWAYS---ALWAYS!!!--- the cylinder bolt slot. In any revolver.

The chamber would seem pretty thin at the slot.

As far as who says no, Uberti/Cimarron and the wisdom of the internet. I suppose there could be one or two of the unwise out there that ran some +P and aren't telling.

 

[RealGun]

My Uberti Stallion Pocket 38 shoots the same target wadcutters as my other 38s. It does, however, accept 38 Colt, if you like. If I wanted +p, I would just grab a .357 instead. The compact Uberti Stallion 38 is a charmer. It is the same size as a Ruger Single-Six and takes those holsters.

 

[Waveski]

Cylinder bolt slot ...Is that the opening in the frame wall aft of the cylinder thru which the piece which locks the cylinder protrudes?

 

[Cocked & Locked]

My Cimarron/Uberti replica of a Colt open top also chambers .38 special & .38 Colt. I've never shot +P .38 special in this and won't...no top strap.

Sure is fun to shoot though!

 

[Old Fuff]

Cylinder bolt slot ...Is that the opening in the frame wall aft of the cylinder thru which the piece which locks the cylinder protrudes?

No. It's the slot(s) in the cylinder itself which the bolt (the piece that locks the cylinder) engages to lock the cylinder when the chamber is concentric with the bore.

 

[rcmodel]

Open the picture in post #7.

Then look at the bolt cut in the cylinder.
(half-round cut, with the tear-drop cut leading into it.)

OK.
Now imagine how thin the steel must be between the bottom of that half-round cut over each chamber / chamber wall on the inside of the chamber.

That is the weakest place in every chamber, in every cylinder because the steel is thinnest there.

Odd number chambers (5-shot) for instance, put the bolt cuts in the thick webs between chambers.

They are in general, much stronger compared to the uncompromised full depth chamber walls.

rc

 

[Waveski]

Thanks to both of you for the explanation . I get it now.

 

[Cump]

The P jrs and other small frames have about a 1.437 in cylinder diameter compared to 1.652 for a SAA.

 

[Cump]

Inexact but illustrative measurements.

Measurement between chamber wall and cylinder wall is about .092 inches -- about 2 1/3 mm. Can't get a great measurement of the slot depth, but it's not much smaller than 1mm.

With the lead edge of the slot aligned with the center of the chamber, that's at most 1.5 mm of steel between case and the open space near my face.

 

[Steve C]

European firearm proof requirements are pretty stringent and required by law while SAAMI standard compliance are voluntary though a manufacturer is opening themselves to legal liability if they fail to follow it in the US. Proofed center fire handguns and rifles are tested with a 25% over load cartridge using CIP standards in Europe. CIP is generally higher pressure than US SAAMI. For example a .38 spl CIP max load is 22K psi compared to a SAAMI +P standard that is 19K psi. If your guns are stamped with the Italian proof marks then they're certainly capable of firing US +P loads without blowing up in your face.

European firearms are seldom marked as +P rated since there's no CIP designation called +P.

Some interesting reading regarding proof marks, proof standards and CIP pressure standards compared to SAAMI.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=73492

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_Internationale_Permanente_pour_l%27Epreuve_des_Armes_%C3%A0_Feu_Portatives#Ammunition_approval

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

 

[RealGun]

the forcing cone barely protrudes into the frame window

It is a 22LR platform with space made for 38 special.

 

[Cump]

Also was sold in 32-20 with a 32 H&r cylinder -- which I might have preferred.

But I already load for 38 ...

The more I handle them, the more I like them. Originally thought about trading one of the pair (since they are not consecutive), but don't think I will.

Will be able to shoot them this week.

 

[BSA1]

Non-issue. Proof loads are much hotter than +P.

Hornady Critical Defense is offered in 38 Special and 38 Special +P. Regular 38 gives excellent expansion.

 

[BCRider]

It's one of those things where the proof loads ensure that the gun won't blow into bits with +P. But I'd equally expect that a steady diet of such loads would likely shoot some things loose or stretch something over time.

As you say there's other guns that are so much better with stronger ammo for serious use. Why not simply reserve these for regular .38Spl or lighter loads?

A lady I shoot with that has very small hands uses a pair of birdshead grip Uberti Stallions for CAS. I have a helluva time wrapping my big hands around these dainty things to try shooting them. Very sweet little guns for those they do fit though.

 

[RealGun]

My Uberti Stallion 38 bears an Italian proofing mark, "CM" inside a rectangle. It's right above the serial number.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

PS: forgot to note, the " weak spot " is ALWAYS---ALWAYS!!!--- the cylinder bolt slot. In any revolver.

Open the picture in post #7.

Then look at the bolt cut in the cylinder.
(half-round cut, with the tear-drop cut leading into it.)

OK.
Now imagine how thin the steel must be between the bottom of that half-round cut over each chamber / chamber wall on the inside of the chamber.

That is the weakest place in every chamber, in every cylinder because the steel is thinnest there.

Odd number chambers (5-shot) for instance, put the bolt cuts in the thick webs between chambers.

They are in general, much stronger compared to the uncompromised full depth chamber walls.

As usual, Old Fluff is correct.

But not all six-shot revolvers have the bolt cut dead center. My Colt New Service, for example, has the cylinder bolt located on the right edge of the frame, and the bolt cut does not compromise the thinnest part of the chamber -- one of the reasons the New Service is such a strong design.

 

[Jim Watson]

Ref Real Gun

As he said, the Junior started out as a .22 since opened up to .32 and .38.

The gunsmith who converted my Single Six to .38 recommended against +P. The Ruger parts are sturdy, they just aren't as big as for a purpose built centerfire.

The (square) CL is the standard Italian date code, not a proof mark.
That is a new gun, CL is this year, 2014.

 

[Old Fuff]

The off-set bolt is common in Colt 6-shot revolvers, going back to the cap-ball era, and the hand-ejectors that were introduced between roughly 1896 through 1908.

But keep in mind that while doing this, the cylinders on early New Service and other revolvers were made from mild steel and not specifically heat treated until 1902 or later. The were proofed for smokeless powder loads as they were made at the time. Some of the heaver loads made today should not be used in vintage New Service revolvers made before the early/middle 1920's.