Alduro,
Sound advice from someone with personal experience. Thanks for sharing it. It could save someone's life.
Sound advice from someone with personal experience. Thanks for sharing it. It could save someone's life.
Weapons to Intimidate: One of the Best Ways to Lose a Fight
- Thread starter orangeninja
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Jim March
Member
I agree with almost everything you've said 
.
I do suspect there are guns SO small that they could be confused as toys or something and lack intimidation value. NAA minirevolvers come to mind, some of the .25s. You're safest with something at least the size of "James Bond's gun" (PPK) or a snubbie .38.
I also think you're not paying attention to how the intimidation factor is related to YOUR obvious willingness to do serious mayhem if needed. The weapon doesn't intimidate so much as the guy (or gal!) holding it. Put another way: I've backed down dogs on several occasions and I'm quite sure they were too stupid to know what a knife was...but they understood my body language and lack of fear just fine.
Basically, intimidation (and backing the opponent down) is something that happens when you're NOT bluffing, and while welcome if it happens...if not, you're fully prepared to do mayhem. There should be no transition from "oh hell, the bluff didn't work, better get ready to fight"!!! Rather, the fact that you're ready and about to bust open a can of wooparse is what causes the violence to be unnecessary because all you can see of the opponent is their fleeing backside.
Understand, such chase-offs are welcome as hell! But they're not what you plan for, they happen because you fully planned to put the opponent in a blender and hit the "puree" button.
You've missed something else, too. The knife. As a cop you think in terms of baton and gun. Civilians can carry knives most places and they have amazing intimidation value. Moreso than a baton, I think. The closer you get, the more deadly a knife is and harder to block...and they can kill even in untrained hands.
.I do suspect there are guns SO small that they could be confused as toys or something and lack intimidation value. NAA minirevolvers come to mind, some of the .25s. You're safest with something at least the size of "James Bond's gun" (PPK) or a snubbie .38.
I also think you're not paying attention to how the intimidation factor is related to YOUR obvious willingness to do serious mayhem if needed. The weapon doesn't intimidate so much as the guy (or gal!) holding it. Put another way: I've backed down dogs on several occasions and I'm quite sure they were too stupid to know what a knife was...but they understood my body language and lack of fear just fine.
Basically, intimidation (and backing the opponent down) is something that happens when you're NOT bluffing, and while welcome if it happens...if not, you're fully prepared to do mayhem. There should be no transition from "oh hell, the bluff didn't work, better get ready to fight"!!! Rather, the fact that you're ready and about to bust open a can of wooparse is what causes the violence to be unnecessary because all you can see of the opponent is their fleeing backside.
Understand, such chase-offs are welcome as hell! But they're not what you plan for, they happen because you fully planned to put the opponent in a blender and hit the "puree" button.
You've missed something else, too. The knife
. As a cop you think in terms of baton and gun. Civilians can carry knives most places and they have amazing intimidation value. Moreso than a baton, I think. The closer you get, the more deadly a knife is and harder to block...and they can kill even in untrained hands.I do like your posts, alduro.
So, you going to test for sergeant? Sounds like you could handle it.
Not that all the other stuff that comes along with the stripes would necessarily be fun, but extra duties and responsibilities rarely are. Could be satisfying, though.
And if you do write a book, put me down for a copy.
So, you going to test for sergeant? Sounds like you could handle it.
Not that all the other stuff that comes along with the stripes would necessarily be fun, but extra duties and responsibilities rarely are. Could be satisfying, though.
And if you do write a book, put me down for a copy.
orangeninja
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NMShooter. I am a Sergeant now, soon to be Lt. sometime this year however. I'll be a bottom grade Lt.....what our dept. calls a Lt. 2. Yeah, the stripes aren't much fun, but I'm slated to take early buy out retirement sometime in 07, not bad for a guy who isn't 30 yet. I'll probably move on to teaching college, Criminal Justice as soon as I finish graduate school...sometime in 08. I do plan on attending the Lethal Force Institute and a handful of other instructor courses and giving some classes in self defense once I know how to teach what I know. I also hope to write a book sometime in the next 3 to 4 years.
Jim March......actually, you agree with me completely. The whole point of my post was to demonstrate that an inanimate object has little to no intimidation effect, but the will of the wielder is what is scary, but one should never count on intimidation in a fight. There is a book by Dan Carlson called "When Cultures Clash" where he gives an excerpt about a tough young cop talking about he will get respect, relying on overpowering intimidation. An older cop in the book then chimed in and remarked to the younger man "you've never been dragged down the street by the back of your belt have you?".
The best way to learn to fight is to lose one, then win one. The weapons may change but there are certain dynamics of fighting that remain the same, one of them is, tools don't win fights.
I didn't omit the knife by accident. I've never had a knife drawn on me, I don't have any experience, training or background on knives and I'm not one for speculating. I do plan on receiving knife training sooner or later and will write about that when I do. But for right now, I’ve seen the winner of a knife fight, and he didn’t look like he felt like a winner at the time.
Jim March......actually, you agree with me completely. The whole point of my post was to demonstrate that an inanimate object has little to no intimidation effect, but the will of the wielder is what is scary, but one should never count on intimidation in a fight. There is a book by Dan Carlson called "When Cultures Clash" where he gives an excerpt about a tough young cop talking about he will get respect, relying on overpowering intimidation. An older cop in the book then chimed in and remarked to the younger man "you've never been dragged down the street by the back of your belt have you?".
The best way to learn to fight is to lose one, then win one. The weapons may change but there are certain dynamics of fighting that remain the same, one of them is, tools don't win fights.
I didn't omit the knife by accident. I've never had a knife drawn on me, I don't have any experience, training or background on knives and I'm not one for speculating. I do plan on receiving knife training sooner or later and will write about that when I do. But for right now, I’ve seen the winner of a knife fight, and he didn’t look like he felt like a winner at the time.
Crosshair
Member
So very true. Thank you for sharing all of that with us. I am planing on getting my CCW and I have a Bersa 83 (380 Automatic) on layaway. The pistol just fits me, they have a proven reliability record, the trigger is perfect for CCW, and it is small enough to conseal in the summer. (Not to mention easy to find Bersa Thunder mags work in it.) People need to realise that the BG is not going to take a calipers and measure the hole you put in him.
orangeninja
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Crosshair....the Bersa .380 is a fine gun, and a .380 will do the trick in most cases, but if you ever have a chance to comfortably carry something in the 9mm range or larger, I'd recommend it.
John Hicks
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excellent post.
It reminded me why I got into guns in the first place. A (now ex) girlfriend had a crazy neighbor and he was a brute. He ended up being committed, but then he was off his meds he would threaten people, throw common-area furniture around, the works. She would always call me for help and support when she was scared, but I thought: what the heck could I do to this guy?
I'm average height and weight (5'8", 170 lbs), so physical intimidation is out. Best bet was avoiding the problem; which had worked so far. But sometimes trouble finds you. That's when I realized I needed a gun and the training on how to use it. Not specifically for this guy, but in general. I will never have any intimidation to stop a fight (and as alduro stated, sometimes no amount of intimidation would ever work).
So 7 peaceful years, several guns, a lot more training, and a much more refined sense of situational-awareness later . . .
Avoidance is your best bet,
Surprise is next,
Force as a last resort,
And luck, always hope for luck.
jh
It reminded me why I got into guns in the first place. A (now ex) girlfriend had a crazy neighbor and he was a brute. He ended up being committed, but then he was off his meds he would threaten people, throw common-area furniture around, the works. She would always call me for help and support when she was scared, but I thought: what the heck could I do to this guy?
I'm average height and weight (5'8", 170 lbs), so physical intimidation is out. Best bet was avoiding the problem; which had worked so far. But sometimes trouble finds you. That's when I realized I needed a gun and the training on how to use it. Not specifically for this guy, but in general. I will never have any intimidation to stop a fight (and as alduro stated, sometimes no amount of intimidation would ever work).
So 7 peaceful years, several guns, a lot more training, and a much more refined sense of situational-awareness later . . .
Avoidance is your best bet,
Surprise is next,
Force as a last resort,
And luck, always hope for luck.
jh
Congratulations on becoming an officer (of sorts)!
So, I hear with plastic surgery the lobotomy scars hardly show these days...
Younger than me and looking forward to retirement already. Yep, I was real smart when I decided that I would go into electronics, because the future is in technology...
But I learned at an early age that sometimes you just can't win.
Something about size not mattering when it is three against one and you are the one comes to mind, at least you don't forget those lessons...
So, I hear with plastic surgery the lobotomy scars hardly show these days...
Younger than me and looking forward to retirement already. Yep, I was real smart when I decided that I would go into electronics, because the future is in technology...
But I learned at an early age that sometimes you just can't win.
Something about size not mattering when it is three against one and you are the one comes to mind, at least you don't forget those lessons...
orangeninja
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NMShooter...yeah, in order to do a lombotomy without scaring, it's done via rectum...which is what Sergeant is all about.
ezypikns
Member
I live in Dallas.....
but I ain't NEVER goin' where Alduro goes. I'm old and I didn't get that way hangin' out in places like those. Give me the boring life every time.
but I ain't NEVER goin' where Alduro goes. I'm old and I didn't get that way hangin' out in places like those. Give me the boring life every time.
Strings
Member
there's an odd bit of psychology behind how big a muzzle looks to you. Grab whatever gun you want, strip it down, and take a gander at the muzzle: don't look too big, does it? Now put the gun back together, and have someone point it at you: suddenly, a .22 looks like a cavern you could have a kegger in
Last time I checked, in any situation you are justified in drawing your weapon, you're already justified in using it. Threats are for junior high kids...
Last time I checked, in any situation you are justified in drawing your weapon, you're already justified in using it. Threats are for junior high kids...
FireBreather01
Member
Good stuff, alduro - I especially like the comment about the cuffs - "they don't intimidate, they escalate". Having had that experience once it is at that exact moment when you know you're in 'custody'. Up to the point of cuffing, you have options - fighting, running, talking your way out, etc - maybe not good ones but you have a whole lot less options available when the cuffs rattle together and there is a certain finality to it!
As far as gun size being intimidating or not - in 1985 we lost two cops here in Milwaukee to a creep with a .25, teeny-tiny or not, they can all be used to kill.
As far as gun size being intimidating or not - in 1985 we lost two cops here in Milwaukee to a creep with a .25, teeny-tiny or not, they can all be used to kill.
NineseveN
member
Your rant was excellent Alduro, and spot on pretty much 100%.
Not to discount it, because this doesn't, but a semi-funny story.
The first time I was shot at (and yes, the thug was shooting at me, trying to hit me)...I did in fact say to myself as the first shot rang out and missed as I was crawling around trying to reach cover:
"That's a Taurus!"
I don't know why I noticed it, but it did not hinder me from finding cover and avoiding bullet wounds. When the firearm was finally physically taken away from Mr. Thuggery, I could not resist confirming my assessment...yep, a PT-92. The other time I was attacked with a firearm, for all I know it could have been a pineapple, except for the loud bangs and the cracks of the bullets. I have no idea what it was, and at the time, that was the furthest thing from my mind. It went boom, that's about all it took to intimidate me. I'll be honest though, I didn't poop myself. Near threw up for a half an hour afterwards, but no fecal relief over that one.
Anyway, again, good rant.
Not to discount it, because this doesn't, but a semi-funny story.
The first time I was shot at (and yes, the thug was shooting at me, trying to hit me)...I did in fact say to myself as the first shot rang out and missed as I was crawling around trying to reach cover:
"That's a Taurus!"
I don't know why I noticed it, but it did not hinder me from finding cover and avoiding bullet wounds. When the firearm was finally physically taken away from Mr. Thuggery, I could not resist confirming my assessment...yep, a PT-92. The other time I was attacked with a firearm, for all I know it could have been a pineapple, except for the loud bangs and the cracks of the bullets. I have no idea what it was, and at the time, that was the furthest thing from my mind. It went boom, that's about all it took to intimidate me. I'll be honest though, I didn't poop myself. Near threw up for a half an hour afterwards, but no fecal relief over that one.
Anyway, again, good rant.
shermacman
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NineseveN
You lead an interesting life, sir! Are you a marriage counselor?
;-)
You lead an interesting life, sir! Are you a marriage counselor?
;-)
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NineseveN
member
Oh god no, I think I'd have to start shooting at myself.
Hehe, all that interesting stuff is well in the past. I'm so boring now, paint complains about watching me dry.
Trisha
Member
Alduro, thanks for stating much of the basic framework to the real world so very well! Those who woke up and smelled the coffee and still cogitate rationally are always worth atention and some introspection.
Kodiaz, Rockrivr1, the urban environment could just as easily have been nearly any of the precincts of Denver. . .
Trisha
Kodiaz, Rockrivr1, the urban environment could just as easily have been nearly any of the precincts of Denver. . .
Trisha
Good experience sharing
Sounds like you've found some pretty rough areas, but as an officer, I suppose it's your job to frequent these places. They make me nervous, I'm over 6' tall, and mean drunks usually want to pick a fight with one of the big guys...sometimes that's me.
But what I appreciated most from your thread was the advice to keep said "gun/mace/baton" etc out of view until it's really time to deploy it. A person pulling a gun to intimidate but not use is just plain stupid in my opinion, I hope some of you share this view. It only gets drawn if its going to be used. But CCW does stop a lot of would be crime, but for me, it doesn't come out unless it's go time. Let's hope that never happens, violence is ugly.
jeepmor
Sounds like you've found some pretty rough areas, but as an officer, I suppose it's your job to frequent these places. They make me nervous, I'm over 6' tall, and mean drunks usually want to pick a fight with one of the big guys...sometimes that's me.
But what I appreciated most from your thread was the advice to keep said "gun/mace/baton" etc out of view until it's really time to deploy it. A person pulling a gun to intimidate but not use is just plain stupid in my opinion, I hope some of you share this view. It only gets drawn if its going to be used. But CCW does stop a lot of would be crime, but for me, it doesn't come out unless it's go time. Let's hope that never happens, violence is ugly.
jeepmor
Ryder
Member
Odd that nobody you know who has had a gun shoved in their face can tell you the caliber. It has only happened to me once but I know it was a loaded S&W 38 Special. Noticed the bullets in the cylinder, not the muzzle size. Didn't spend much time trying to figure out the model number either
Have to agree on using the element of surpise. If someone even saw my gun before they were shot by it they'd be one mighty quick thinker.
Got hit by mace once back when it first came out. Caught by surprise. The person did it as a joke. He's lucky it wasn't done in defense because I'd have torn him to pieces. It did not disable me and I just walked it off.
True enough that inanimate objects don't impress me. Using them for such a thing would be silly. I've only been forced into violence by the intentions of others. Do unto others before they do unto you.
Have to agree on using the element of surpise. If someone even saw my gun before they were shot by it they'd be one mighty quick thinker.
Got hit by mace once back when it first came out. Caught by surprise. The person did it as a joke. He's lucky it wasn't done in defense because I'd have torn him to pieces. It did not disable me and I just walked it off.
True enough that inanimate objects don't impress me. Using them for such a thing would be silly. I've only been forced into violence by the intentions of others. Do unto others before they do unto you.
Strings
Member
odd to admit, but I actually got hit with pepperspray once: by my own hand...
Standing at the urinal in a deserted wayside, and realized I hadn't tested my spray in awhile. Not really thinking, I flip off the safety, and give the wall a squirt... making sure it WILL still spray. Ran out of there rather abruptly (put myself back in order outside)...
Standing at the urinal in a deserted wayside, and realized I hadn't tested my spray in awhile. Not really thinking, I flip off the safety, and give the wall a squirt... making sure it WILL still spray. Ran out of there rather abruptly (put myself back in order outside)...
Hypnogator
Member
One of my "Rules of Combat Gunfighting".....
A gun is a weapon, not a magic wand that will paralyze your opponents with fear or make them rational. If you aren't willing to kill to protect yourself or your loved ones, don't carry a gun.
A gun is a weapon, not a magic wand that will paralyze your opponents with fear or make them rational. If you aren't willing to kill to protect yourself or your loved ones, don't carry a gun.
Billy Sparks
Member
Never have truer words been spoken.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Mace
Quote:
>Got hit by mace once back when it first came out. Caught by surprise. The person did it as a joke. He's lucky it wasn't done in defense because I'd have torn him to pieces. It did not disable me and I just walked it off.<
******************
I saw a trio of Myrtle Beach, SC cops mace a guy one night. Never saw a man fight that hard in my life. It took all three to take him down after he got a face full, and all participants were bloody, bruised, battered and generally well skint up by the time they got him in the car. One of the cops...a big, strappin' lad...had his shirt torn completely off of him.
Mace takes the fight outta most people on contact. Some few others will eat you alive.
Quote:
>Got hit by mace once back when it first came out. Caught by surprise. The person did it as a joke. He's lucky it wasn't done in defense because I'd have torn him to pieces. It did not disable me and I just walked it off.<
******************
I saw a trio of Myrtle Beach, SC cops mace a guy one night. Never saw a man fight that hard in my life. It took all three to take him down after he got a face full, and all participants were bloody, bruised, battered and generally well skint up by the time they got him in the car. One of the cops...a big, strappin' lad...had his shirt torn completely off of him.
Mace takes the fight outta most people on contact. Some few others will eat you alive.
alduro
Very good post. I passed it on to a lot of my friends. The part about the hand cuffs is dead on. If someone doesn't want to be cuffed, no way you are cuffing them without major back up. In the movies they make it look easy.
I had a buddy (a few years ago) who was in a verbal exchange in a parking lot with another guy his age. It was a stupid "what are you looking at" dispute. At most it may have led to a fist fight. Well, foolishly my buddy pulls his Glock thinking it will "intimidate" this guy and make him tuck tail and run. The guy called his bluff and began to yell "Do it! Go on and do it! Shoot me! Come on tough guy. You don't have the balls."
Now my buddy was in a bad situation. He obviously couldn't shoot the unarmed guy and his "intimidation" bluff back fired. He ended up having to retreat and leave the location, looking like a total fool and lucky he didn't get busted for brandishing.
Well said!
Very good post. I passed it on to a lot of my friends. The part about the hand cuffs is dead on. If someone doesn't want to be cuffed, no way you are cuffing them without major back up. In the movies they make it look easy.
I had a buddy (a few years ago) who was in a verbal exchange in a parking lot with another guy his age. It was a stupid "what are you looking at" dispute. At most it may have led to a fist fight. Well, foolishly my buddy pulls his Glock thinking it will "intimidate" this guy and make him tuck tail and run. The guy called his bluff and began to yell "Do it! Go on and do it! Shoot me! Come on tough guy. You don't have the balls."
Now my buddy was in a bad situation. He obviously couldn't shoot the unarmed guy and his "intimidation" bluff back fired. He ended up having to retreat and leave the location, looking like a total fool and lucky he didn't get busted for brandishing. Well said!
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