Webley Mk III 45ACP

[clance]

I just purchased a Mk3 Webley 4" which the cylinder has been cut to accept 45acp in moon clips. I have read in some forums that these guns aren't safe. But seeing that the Brits general re-nitro proof any firearm that would have such a modification to insure the safety of said weapon, and the fact that these were generally military sidearms. I can't see them placing a service revolver in a officer hand that could possible injured said officer.

I would just feel a little more comfortable to get others feedback of those that have had experience with the modified Webley MkIII

 

[Jim Watson]

They were not British military sidearms after being cut for .45 ACP.
That was an alteration made to improve surplus sales to gullible Colonials.

Standard .45 ACP is over the proof load pressure for .455.

Is it marked for .45 ACP proof?

 

[Ron James]

Jim has it correct, they were never re proofed by the British government because the British government had nothing to do with the conversion. This was a conversion meant for the American market. Because the correct ammo was practically non existent in the U S. these guns were modified for the .45 ACP so they would sell. If you wish to use .45 ACP ammo, do so with reduced loads. I don't believe it will blow up in your hands, but it will Da** sure shoot loose in a very short period of time. I might be wrong, maybe it blow up in your hands, please let us know what happens so we can learn also.

 

[Willie Sutton]

Load plinking loads and enjoy. I use a smidge of bullseye and a hand-pressed into place lead ball of the sort generally used for cap and ball black powder revolvers. Great old revolver. Will *most definately* shoot loose with a steady diet of full house ,45 ACP. Try finding some .45 Auto Rim, they will headspace without moon clips and extract like any other cartridge. Google this cartridge. In any event, this is a handloaders revolver.


Willie

.

 

[rcmodel]

+1 to all the above.

The conversions were done, sometimes well, but more often poorly, by American importers trying to sell them in the 1950's & 60's when there was no .455 Webley ammo available in the USA.

They were never proof-tested by anyone for .45 ACP.
Let alone a British proof house.

Mid-range match ammo might be safe enough.
Full-power 230 grain ball, or especially +P is about twice the British Proof load pressure.

I also agree it probably won't blow up.
But it will likely shoot loose & start rattling like a beer can full of rocks pretty soon.

rc

 

[Nom de Forum]

I once owned a Mark III in .455 about 30 years ago. I sold it cheap before realizing what I had, one of the rarest military Marks. Having shot both G.I. Hardball and even .45GAP in a Mark VI, although not anymore due to feeling I was pressing my luck, I know the Webley Mark VI is certainly stronger than many believe. I think shooting full power .45ACP in the even older Mark III is really pressing your luck.

 

[Jim Watson]

It probably won't blow up... but it might.
I have seen pictures of a Mk VI with the cylinder and topstrap blown.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ There are photos of N Frame Smiths with the cylinder and topstrap blown too. A double charge of Unique will do that to just about anything.

The Webly is a quality revolver and is perfectly suitable *when shot with loads that are correct for it's limits*. Those loads are best developed using (for those cut for half moon clips) .45 Auto Rim brass, using lead SWC's, and a suitable powder to get a 700 FPS load, which is perfectly suitable for these. .45 ACP brass with the same loadings using half moon clips are fine too. Just be respectful and it'll be fine.

Clance, if the crowd has caused you to not love that old thing any more, pass it down the line to someone who would appreciate it, like me.


Willie

.

 

[natman]

I just purchased a Mk3 Webley 4" which the cylinder has been cut to accept 45acp in moon clips. I have read in some forums that these guns aren't safe. But seeing that the Brits general re-nitro proof any firearm that would have such a modification to insure the safety of said weapon, and the fact that these were generally military sidearms. I can't see them placing a service revolver in a officer hand that could possible injured said officer.

I would just feel a little more comfortable to get others feedback of those that have had experience with the modified Webley MkIII

The modification wasn't done by the British government.

SAAMI pressure for the 455 Webley is about 13000 psi. 45 ACP SAAMI pressure is 21000 psi.

The Webley was originally designed for black powder and should be loaded with respect for its heritage, using very mild loads and lead bullets.

Check this article for more detail:

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku....TERED--SHOOT-45-ACP--45-Auto-Rim#.UO3Wc5G3pJk

 

[Nom de Forum]

Clance,

I don't think "the crowd" in this thread has attempted to end your "love" for your Mk III. We are only trying to persuade you that it is wise to use handloads that create appropriate chamber pressures to ensure safety and longevity. In the 1980's and 1990's I used a Mk VI to shoot not hundreds but thousands of rounds of .451 cast 225gr RN with 5.0 grains of WW231 and several hundred rounds of 185gr loaded with 5.7 grains of WW231. These loads really loosed up the Mk VI but it still shoots well enough it can stay on a 10" plate at 25 yards. I am not telling you or anyone else that these loads are safe to use and am emphatically telling you and anyone else reading this post they should not use them.

So why don't we frequently hear about thousands of Webley's that went Kaboom? After all thousands of converted Webleys have been around for decades and lots of cheap .45ACP was shot in them. This is my guess and could be completely wrong:

Despite all the talk about .455 proof loads being of lower pressure than .45ACP I think the engineers a century ago did what most engineers did back then because of the less sophisticated tools and materials they worked with; they added a "fudge factor" to their equations. In other words they deliberately over built just in case they got the math wrong or the materials were not as strong as they were supposed to be.

Despite talk of tight forcing cones many are not (remember by the time of the Mk VI .455 FMJ was the norm), and chambers and barrels are a little oversize for shooting .45 ACP and large cylinder gaps are releasing quite a bit of gas.

The steel the cylinders are made of is fairly soft and flexible and not shattering but flexing more than would be normally expected.

Again I could be completely wrong about all this, and if I am wrong then only luck kept me from having a Kaboom from one of the thousands of .45ACP/AR rounds I have fired through a Mk VI.

Hang on to your Mk III, don't pass it down the line. BTW avoid old balloon head .45 Auto Rim.

Perhaps I should also tell you I have shot factory .45Colt Silvertips out of a Webley WG .476/.455 without having a Kaboom. Don't do that!

 

[Iggy]

Webley round 14000 psi, 45ACP 19000 psi

 

[Nom de Forum]

The modification wasn't done by the British government.

SAAMI pressure for the 455 Webley is about 13000 psi. 45 ACP SAAMI pressure is 21000 psi.

The Webley was originally designed for black powder and should be loaded with respect for its heritage, using very mild loads and lead bullets.

Check this article for more detail:

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku....TERED--SHOOT-45-ACP--45-Auto-Rim#.UO3Wc5G3pJk

Webley Mk III, IV, V, and VI revolvers were not designed for black powder loads. All were designed to use Cordite loads but could chamber and fire black powder ammunition. I believe some of the Mk IIs were also made/converted to safely fire Cordite loads.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Webley round 14000 psi, 45ACP 19000 psi

Hey Iggy how about a little more information about the source of this picture and who fired what in the Webley? Is this a some google-fu on your part or is it your revolver?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

You're not using this fine old revolver for deer or large game, or self-defense, are you? So there's no need to stress it.

If you go to the Hodgdon Data site http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol you can find pressure-tested loads for .45 ACP (which will also do for .45 Auto Rim.) This is the lowest pressure starting load listed:

Powder IMR SR 4756

Bullet weight 200 grains

Bullet Diameter.451"

OAL 1.155"

Charge Weight 7.0 grains

Muzzle Velocity 842

Pressure 11,100 CUP

 

[Slamfire]

Safety standards were different then and so was the metallurgy. I looked at Wiki and this revolver dates from 1898 to 1912. You can bet that the steels are plain carbon steel, probably with a lot of slag and impurities, inferior in properties to the same stuff today. Which, incidentally, is so low grade that the plain carbon steels then, are being used now for rebar and rail road spikes. It is likely the cylinders were not even heat treated. Just because something was proofed 110 years ago, does not mean it is factory new now.

So, whatever load you come up with, make sure it is light. I would try to find a 200 grain load 500-600 fps. I used Bullseye in my Mk IV conversion. My revolver was poorly converted, the reamer used removed any cylinder throat. These were old guns and cheaply converted well before the era of product liability. Back then, if you bought a defective product and it hurt you, that was just your bad luck.

 

[Iggy]

Re: Blow pics. Google Webley Blow ups.. Many pictures of Webleys including the above pics and a moon clip of blown 45 ACPs next to this gun.

Here is a URL for the picture.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Webley and other revolvers/Blown01a-1.jpg
That's all I can tell you.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

Those Webley's are a wild cat gunsmith's dream. If know the story of how Dick Casull joined the ".44 Associates" then you'll get where I'm coming from.

I wouldn't buy one unless I was trying a full rebuild. By that I mean turning out a brand new barrel. Carburizing, hardening, and tempering the steel frame. Cutting brand new cylinder from 4140 steel then line boring it with the barrel for really close tolerances, and heat treating and tempering the cylinder.

The Webley's were typical Western European pistols. They were not meant for a whole lot of fighting. They ran a black powder performances which were low to begin with, and were not meant to be the hard fighters like the Colt Peacemaker.

If you want a fun old-timey .45, get a Uberti Remington 1858, and then get either the .45 Colt or .45 ACP conversion for it. It'll run you right around $600 for the gun plus the conversion (the conversion will cost money). Hickok45 does a good youtube video on it. I might get such a setup in 2015 if things keep going sweet for me.

 

[Jim K]

I am no Anglophile, ready to claim (as some have done) that Webleys are super strong, can't be blown up, and that any reports of failure must be due to an evil colonial plot.

But I would have to say that the following has to be considered just a bit silly: "The Webley's were typical Western European pistols. They were not meant for a whole lot of fighting. They ran a black powder performances which were low to begin with, and were not meant to be the hard fighters like the Colt Peacemaker."

Webleys were of excellent quality for the time, as were most other European mililtary revolvers of that period (c. 1870-1920); all were as good as, or better than, the Colt SAA. Webley revolvers were used by the British in long and heavy fighting, actually more enduring and against a more determined enemy than faced by the U.S. Army. Those revolvers were at least as durable as the Colt SAA, and probably more so, since spring breakage was common with the Colt, while being nearly unknown with the Webley.

The break top design of the Webley was not as strong as a solid frame, but the argument can be made that rapid reloading is more important in a battle than a strong frame, and the Webleys (and the S&W Schofield) certainly are far superior to the Colt in that respect.

As to black powder, no revolver made before about 1890 was made for smokeless powder because smokeless powder had not come into general use.

Jim

 

[Nom de Forum]

I wouldn't buy one unless I was trying a full rebuild. By that I mean turning out a brand new barrel. Carburizing, hardening, and tempering the steel frame. Cutting brand new cylinder from 4140 steel then line boring it with the barrel for really close tolerances, and heat treating and tempering the cylinder.

All of which is completely unnecessary if you use appropriate loads in a Webley that is in good condition.

The Webley's were typical Western European pistols. They were not meant for a whole lot of fighting. They ran a black powder performances which were low to begin with, and were not meant to be the hard fighters like the Colt Peacemaker.

Jim K already sufficiently rebutted this nonsense.

 

[Nom de Forum]

After doing a little checking in my books I would like to point out that .455 Webley cartridges began to be loaded with cordite as early as 1894. The Mk III revolver Clance has was first approved for service in 1897. Another interesting point is that Clance's revolver may have had its cylinder replaced with a Mk V style stronger cylinder as that was S.O.P after 1914 for Mk III and Mk IV revolvers requiring repair. Even with out a Mk V cylinder the Mk III was designed to fire Cordite cartridges.

 

[Jaymo]

What about loading it with Trail Boss?
I'd be tempted to get the Lee ROA conical boolit mold and load that over TB.
I'd probably load it with black powder, just for fun.

Could always load it with a mild charge of Bullseye or Red Dot and a .454 round ball.

 

[Slamfire]

This thread has excellent information and warnings on these conversions:

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku....-REVOLVERS-ALTERED--SHOOT-45-ACP--45-Auto-Rim

Please consider these facts -

1. The operating pressure for the Mark VI Webley revolver (the last, and strongest, of the .455 Webley service revolvers) was a maximum of 13200PSI (i.e. six 'long tons' of 2200 lbs).

2. The standard operating pressure generated by milspec and full factory loads of .45 ACP ball ammunition is 19,000PSI.

3. The pressure of .45 ACP milspec and standard factory loads exceeds the proof load for the Mark VI Webley revolver

I think very highly of the 455 Webley as a fighting pistol. It points straight, great sights, easy to double action, fast to load. It fired a big, soft, lead slug which left a big, mushy hole in tissue. Recoil was low. It was meant to be a close up antipersonnel weapon, not a bear or buffalo hunting rig. It was used world wide.

But, they are getting very old in the tooth, you have to be gentle with them.

 

[the Black Spot]

Why not just reload with 3f black powder under a 200 gr bullet lubed with 50/50 beeswax/olive oil ?

 

[Kaeto]

I load for my Enfield Mk VI (a direct copy of the Webley Mk VI) that was manufactured in 1926 using a .454 Dia 255 grain projectile over 3.9 grains of Bullseye in both .45 ACP and .45 Autorim. Just recently I found on Ebay a guy who machines plates that allow shaved Webleys to use Webley Mk II ammo again. Only cost $20.00 and works like a charm.

Here's where I get my projectiles from.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Hornady_452_255_Grain_FP_Cowboy_Swaged_Bullets_it-159757.aspx?CAT=4144

And here is The Lady herself. Left hand holster because I'm left handed.

 

[natman]

Webley Mk III, IV, V, and VI revolvers were not designed for black powder loads. All were designed to use Cordite loads but could chamber and fire black powder ammunition. I believe some of the Mk IIs were also made/converted to safely fire Cordite loads.

Quite true. Please note:

The Webley was originally designed for black powder and should be loaded with respect for its heritage, using very mild loads and lead bullets.

So it's a black powder design, which in later versions was modified to handle mild smokeless loads. In any case no Webley was designed for 45 ACP pressures, despite the coincidence that they can be modified so 45 ACP cartridges in moon clips physically fit in the chambers. Even if it doesn't blow up, it will shoot loose. Load them to the appropriate level and enjoy.