Molon Labe
Frugal Squirrel
Member # 4412
posted November 24, 2003 01:16 PM
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My imaginary discussion with an Ignorant Person (IP):
IP: The 2nd Amendment does not give you a right to keep and bear arms! It refers to the "militia", and the National Guard is our militia!!
Me: You are incorrect, which I'll elaborate on shortly. But for now let's assume (strictly for the sake of discussion) that you are correct, i.e. that the Second Amendment only protects the right of the organized militia to keep and bear arms. So what? What does that have to do with me?
IP: Well, if the "militia" in the Second Amendment refers to the National Guard, then that means private individuals such as yourself who are not in the National Guard do not have a right to keep and bear arms. Duh!
Me: So you're saying that a right does not exist unless it is explicitly enumerated in the Bill of Rights?
IP: Well, um, yes.
Me: But the Bill of Rights says I have rights not listed in the Bill of Rights.
IP: What are you talking about? It does?
Me: Of course. Aren't you familiar with the 9th Amendment?
IP: Well, um, no...
Me: It says, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." In other words, we have lots of rights not listed in the Bill of Rights. Examples include the right to own property and the right to make a profit.
IP: Well yes, I agree, but, um...
Me: Furthermore, and more importantly, the Bill of Rights does not give us any rights. It simply says that the government can't take them away.
IP: O.K., but, uh...
Me: So if we assume for the sake of discussion that you are correct, and the "militia" in the Second Amendment refers to the National Guard, then we are left to conclude that the Bill of Rights is silent about an individual's right to keep and bear arms. And as you just learned, if the Bill of Rights is silent about a right, it does not mean the right doesn't exist.
IP: Well, um...
Me: In fact, I would still have a right to bear arms if the 2nd Amendment didn't even exist. And if you want to take it once step further, I would have a right to bear arms if the entire Constitution didn’t exist! My rights are not contingent on the existence of these documents. And neither are yours. Would you not agree that you would have the right to free speech even if the Constitution did not exist?
IP: Well, uh, yes...
Me: But you want to know something? It just so happens that the 2nd Amendment does protect an individual's right to keep and bear arms. It's certainly not required (as you just learned), but I'm glad we have it anyway.
IP: Oh yea? Prove it.
Me: The 1st Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
What "people" are they talking about?
IP: The individual citizens, of course.
Me: The 4th Amendment says, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the plate to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
What "people" are they talking about?
IP: The individual citizens, of course.
Me: The 9th Amendment says, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
What "people" are they talking about?
IP: The individual citizens, of course.
Me: The 10th Amendment says, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
What "people" are they talking about?
IP: The individual citizens, of course.
Me: The 2nd Amendment says, "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."
What "people" are they talking about?
IP: Um, um, well you see, um...
Me: Why do you assume the "people" mentioned in the 1st, 4th, 9th, and 10th Amendments refer to all citizens, while the "people" mentioned in the 2nd Amendment refers to only a small, select class of government employees? Aren't all the Amendments referring to the same "people"?? Hmm?
IP: Um, look, I'll have to think about that one for a while and get back with you.
[ November 24, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Molon Labe ]
( To read more about this topic, and perhaps even join in, click on this link---- www.frugalsquirrels.com/u...1;t=021739 )
Frugal Squirrel
Member # 4412
posted November 24, 2003 01:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My imaginary discussion with an Ignorant Person (IP):
IP: The 2nd Amendment does not give you a right to keep and bear arms! It refers to the "militia", and the National Guard is our militia!!
Me: You are incorrect, which I'll elaborate on shortly. But for now let's assume (strictly for the sake of discussion) that you are correct, i.e. that the Second Amendment only protects the right of the organized militia to keep and bear arms. So what? What does that have to do with me?
IP: Well, if the "militia" in the Second Amendment refers to the National Guard, then that means private individuals such as yourself who are not in the National Guard do not have a right to keep and bear arms. Duh!
Me: So you're saying that a right does not exist unless it is explicitly enumerated in the Bill of Rights?
IP: Well, um, yes.
Me: But the Bill of Rights says I have rights not listed in the Bill of Rights.
IP: What are you talking about? It does?
Me: Of course. Aren't you familiar with the 9th Amendment?
IP: Well, um, no...
Me: It says, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." In other words, we have lots of rights not listed in the Bill of Rights. Examples include the right to own property and the right to make a profit.
IP: Well yes, I agree, but, um...
Me: Furthermore, and more importantly, the Bill of Rights does not give us any rights. It simply says that the government can't take them away.
IP: O.K., but, uh...
Me: So if we assume for the sake of discussion that you are correct, and the "militia" in the Second Amendment refers to the National Guard, then we are left to conclude that the Bill of Rights is silent about an individual's right to keep and bear arms. And as you just learned, if the Bill of Rights is silent about a right, it does not mean the right doesn't exist.
IP: Well, um...
Me: In fact, I would still have a right to bear arms if the 2nd Amendment didn't even exist. And if you want to take it once step further, I would have a right to bear arms if the entire Constitution didn’t exist! My rights are not contingent on the existence of these documents. And neither are yours. Would you not agree that you would have the right to free speech even if the Constitution did not exist?
IP: Well, uh, yes...
Me: But you want to know something? It just so happens that the 2nd Amendment does protect an individual's right to keep and bear arms. It's certainly not required (as you just learned), but I'm glad we have it anyway.
IP: Oh yea? Prove it.
Me: The 1st Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
What "people" are they talking about?
IP: The individual citizens, of course.
Me: The 4th Amendment says, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the plate to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
What "people" are they talking about?
IP: The individual citizens, of course.
Me: The 9th Amendment says, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
What "people" are they talking about?
IP: The individual citizens, of course.
Me: The 10th Amendment says, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
What "people" are they talking about?
IP: The individual citizens, of course.
Me: The 2nd Amendment says, "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."
What "people" are they talking about?
IP: Um, um, well you see, um...
Me: Why do you assume the "people" mentioned in the 1st, 4th, 9th, and 10th Amendments refer to all citizens, while the "people" mentioned in the 2nd Amendment refers to only a small, select class of government employees? Aren't all the Amendments referring to the same "people"?? Hmm?
IP: Um, look, I'll have to think about that one for a while and get back with you.
[ November 24, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Molon Labe ]
( To read more about this topic, and perhaps even join in, click on this link---- www.frugalsquirrels.com/u...1;t=021739 )