Well...it almost made 500 rounds

[Zerstoerer]

Ugaarguy, 1911 Tuner, Correia

Ugaarguy, 1911 Tuner, Correia

Apologies to all of you.
I will try to better myself in the future before I get kicked of this awesome forum.
That would be bad in case my HK USP breaks one day and I need technical advice
myself. Yes, I will say that my old HK P9s did develop a problem once.

1911 Tuner – if you are serious I would like to come by one day.
Will bring HK, tons of ammo and beer. The first gun to fail looses.
But wait, that would not be fair – you said your middle lug is already
wearing out? Just kidding – don’t get offended.

Correia – you are absolutely correct with your suggestions about sticking to the facts or
personal experience/observations. Let’s do that.
I did not quote Tommy Lee Jones or Chuck Taylor.
I have seen HKs and Glocks and SiGs in action at FLETC. And I have seen 1911s
break or be unreliable with hollow points. A lot of people do a lot of gunsmithing
to get a 1911 design to feed modern ammo reliable. Which prompts the question
of why to go to that effort and money when you can have the reliability right out
of the box -as long as that box says ‘Made in Germany/Austria/Switzerland’ on it.
The fact that some SWAT team with almost unlimited funds for ammo and training
uses a 1911 design does not make all 1911s worthy. Why are most LE Dept. not using them?
Why did the Military finally get rid of them ? (not to start a new 9mm - .45ACP thread).

Ugaarguy – will stop trolling as you suggested. Will continue to critique not bash the 1911 design.

I sure enjoy communicating with all of you.

 

[45auto]

" Why are most LE Dept. not using them?"

SA trigger.

 

[the pistolero]

Why did the Military finally get rid of them ?

Ammo commonality, according to this; they wanted to use the same caliber as the NATO countries. Take the source for what you think it's worth, but there you go.

 

[Azrael256]

" Why are most LE Dept. not using them?"

SA trigger.

That, I think, and the price. A nice 1911 will run in the $600 region while a Glock with comparable features is more like $300 with the LE discount. If your department is issuing pistols (and therefore paying for them), Glock is certainly an excellent way to go. There is, however, no doubt that LE has turned toward DA, DAO, and systems like Glock's in recent years.

I have, however, seen more and more 1911s and BHPs in duty holsters recently.

This MIM thing is a little unnerving. Springfield goes to MIM hammers less than a year ago, and then we hear of hooks shearing off. I know, it's just one event out of many, many hammers, but it does not inspire confidence. A sear nose breaking wouldn't have been such a shock.

 

[Master Blaster]

Not all applications lend themselves to MIM technology. Two examples are extractors and mainspring struts. To that list I would add sears, hammers, firing pin stops, magazine latches slide stops, disconectors and safety locks (manual safeties). These parts have knife edges that can crumble or are placed under considerable strain, and/or frequent impacts.

I have a whole drawer full of wood working router bits,the cutters are made entirely of sintered metal they are entirely MIM. They spin at 10,000 to 25,000 rpm. They cut wood, and even cut through nails without chipping or breaking. 20,000 impacts per minute sufficient to cut oak. I also have saw blades with teeth made from powdered "pot metal" which is harder and more brittle than the metal used in gun parts. I have yet to have a cutter or a blade chip or break. In fact the sintered metal (carbide) is used in all types of industrial cutting tools, where they undergo tremendous heat and impact stress without breaking.

The rotors used in nuclear reactor turbines which have lots of long thin blades, that spin at high speeds under high heat 24/7 for years are also made of MIM.

Its all a matter of quality control, really it is.

 

[ugaarguy]

Zerstoerer, apology accepted.

I think one of the key things to remember with 1911s is that the design is public domain, so you have literally dozens of companies competing to seel their version of the same pistol. You have the Wilson, Nighthawk, Baer, Yost, etc offering the top end no compromise pistol at a top end price. Then you have the SA GI, RIA, High Standard, Armscor, etc offering the base model at a base price. In the middle you have Colt, Kimber, SA Loaded, S&W, and even Taurus now trying to offer the features of the custom guns for a price closer to a base gun; something has to give and MIM is one way to get a "custom" style part at a base model price. If the HK USP, SiG P Series, Glock, etc was public domain then you'd have the same three tiered base/factory custom/true custom competition with similar results. The 1911 is a proven design that works very well when made correctly; hence it's pushing 100 years of continuous production and copying. On the other hand the Luger died very quickly after WWII when it was no longer a service sidearm; the 1911 survived and flourished outside the military.

I have to tell you Zerstoerer, I do like the HK USP though. The Variant 1 with multi position, multi function, safety lever is very nice; it can be carried SA cocked and locked, or DA/SA with the decocker, all without modification. I also like the USP's 1911-esque grip angle - much nicer than a Glock in my hands. On the other hand we should remember that JMB's innovative design on the 1911 mainspring housing is the original modular backstrap. Like Correia said there are something like 15-20 major brands that are making top notch production pistols and we must each choose the one that fits our own needs and wants. After that we must acknowledge that pistols are machines, machines can fail, and we must test our own firearms to ensure that individual tool's reliability.

 

[Falconeer]

My understanding is there are no MIM parts in the Sig GSRs. I've only had mine out once so far (to the tune of 250 rounds) but it's definately a keeper.

 

[Whirlwind06]

If the HK USP, SiG P Series, Glock, etc was public domain then you'd have the same three tiered base/factory custom/true custom competition with similar results.

So how much longer until the glock 17 patent expires?
Can't wait to get me a Hi-Point made Glock

 

[Action_Can_Do]

Ugaarguy,
What?!?!?!?! I did not make an "unwarranted, personal attack on Correia! I made a small attempt at levity. I don't know Correia, so making a personal attack is beyond my ability. I also think 1911tuner would tell you being called a 1911 fan is hardly an insult.
Correia,
If you were indeed offended, I offer my apology.

Everyone Else,
Sorry for adding fuel to the flame, but I can't stand being accused of something I didn't do. Hopefully the bad blood is all out and we can continue on the high road.

 

[Correia]

Huh? I'm not offended. Didn't even notice actually.

Guys, let's all go back to our thread.

 

[1911Tuner]

1911 Misconceptions

Zerstoerer..Say when.

As far as having to spend time and money with a smith to get the 1911s to feed modern ammo reliably...that's been the case in recent guns. The problem with the 1911 these days is that the lower-end examples are thrown together with drop-in this and that, and many aren't even close to print specs. If you could handle one that isn't worn out, and was properly built and within spec, you'd see a very different gun.

I have several original, unaltered USGI pistols ranging from 1912 manufacture to 1945...a 1916 and 1925 Colt commercial models that will all feed and function with modern hollowpoints and even 200-grain cast lead semi-wadcutters like they were specifically tuned for the stuff...and they'll do it from the old GI "Hardball Only" magazines...something that I'll be glad to demonstrate for ya if ya come for a visit.

The biggest problem with the 1911 is that it's so popular, and the market so huge...that everybody and their brother is vying for a piece of the pie. The other problem is that it doesn't lend itself to modern "Cookie Cutter" manufacturing methods...which is what it takes to make it affordable. To build a 1911 pistol correctly today...including all dimensional specs and with the proper materials...the cost would place it into the same category as the
higher end semi-customs...and that would mean only about 10% of the market. The producers of the "Volkspistol" 1911 know that the average buyer wants one mainly for nostalgia, and won't likely shoot the gun more than a box or two a year, if that much. The serious shooters either buy the Wilsons or the Baers, or they buy the pedestrian guns and immediately send them off to a smith for upgrades and enhancements. Simply put...the manufacturers know that they're essentially building a toy.

There was a time...and not so long ago...that this was neither the standard approach, nor was it necessary. I recall that it really started to go downhill in the early 70s. A Colt 1911 manufactured prior to about 1965 that didn't function perfectly out of the box was a rarity.

My beaters that run into the 10s of thousands of rounds without malfunctions? I've done nothing more than tweak'em to correct specs. No "Black Magic" or voodoo master pistolsmith tricks. Mainly just the plain, old tripod of reliability. Magazines...Extractor...Halfway decent ammo...and most of my ammo is awfully funky.

Open invitation. Come see/Come say!

 

[ugaarguy]

Action Can Do,

My apologies. In the midst of Correia being criticized for moderating the thread I interpreted your comment of "...you must be a 1911 fan." To be jab at him for trying to keep the thread focused on fixing a 1911, not saying 'junk it and get a better brand.' Sorry for the misinterpretation and subsequent unbased accusation. I forget that not everyone knows that Correia is a dealer who openminded on any quality pistol. No bad blood here from my perspective; hopefully none from yours either.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

This one incident is hardly a trend, but it makes me worship my SIGs that much more. Four of them over years and thousands of rounds and not a single breakage

SIG uses MIM parts too, so there is no reason to worship your SIG in that regard. It could happen to you too.

 

[MadMercS55]

I've found that new SIG's do indeed use MIM parts, in the P220/226/229, etc. But their failure rate is very low compared to other MIM weapons. However they do state clearly there are no MIM parts in the GSR series. The older SIG pistols also do not have MIM parts in them. I own many SIG's made in the early 80's and you can clearly see the difference in some of the parts, especially some of the internals, hammers, etc.

 

[deacon]

Got the GI back from Springfield and they did indeed replace the hammer....

It didn't live in the pistol long though, as Tuner sent me a steel Colt unit that dropped right in and works great...thanks again Johnny

Also, I had Springfield look at the canted front sight and gave my full permission to replace with a set of Mil-Spec sights. They did...what a difference from the stock GI pieces ! So I now have a GI, with Mil-Spec sights, and a honest-to-goodness Colt hammer...which has digested 200 rounds thus far without incident.

Thanks for all who gave input on this issue and keep up the good work !

 

[Ermac]

glad it worked out for you!


to the others - I think the easiest pistols to completely take apart are Glocks and the Beretta 92fs (if your not including the extractor).