Well, Well, Well....

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Tony50ae

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Turns out that Mexico's gangs don't need to get assault weapons from the United States after all....
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100725/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_drug_war_mexico

We have to remember this the next time the lie comes up how our so called "assault wepaons" are being used across the border. Luckily for us the movement to reinstate the ban has slowed to a crawl. It just goes to show what us law abiding citizens have said all along. Criminals will always be able to get guns.
 
Help me out here, I missed the part of the article where it said that none of the guns used by criminals in Mexico ever came from the US. Which paragraph was that in?

I'm not saying that the numbers of guns going over the border for criminal use isn't probably overstated, but to point to one article and claim that none of them are seems equally as foolish.
 
You're right I should have worded that different. I do believe that some of our weapons are getting across. But only some. From this article I meant to show that Mexico's gangs can get their weapons from other sources as well, including obviously from some sources one would never think possible. In other words the Mexico government should not be just blaming us. And the antis cannot just blame the U.S. for it either.
 
Help me out here, I missed the part of the article where it said that none of the guns used by criminals in Mexico ever came from the US. Which paragraph was that in?

I'm not saying that the numbers of guns going over the border for criminal use isn't probably overstated, but to point to one article and claim that none of them are seems equally as foolish.
Jorg, WAKE UP!! That whole crock of brown stinky bovine gravy about guns from the US being used by Mexican criminals was bogus from the git go. They get their automatic weapons from South and Central America as well as from China (probably Cuba too). The gun grabbing nut jobs in the US wanted to use that baloney as a basis for more gun control here.
 
When it comes to Mexico, nothing surprises me. The entire country is corrupt, and most of the time I fail to see the difference between the drug cartels, the warlords, and the politicians.

I just wish that they would stick to killing each other (which I see as beneficial) as opposed to innocent civilians.

I wont post the link, because of how disturbing some may find it, but I recently saw a news story involving a shootout between rival cartels that left both (as well a large number of their thugs) dead. The entire article (or, the vast majority of it) was just images of the deceased, though there were some pictures of their equipment. They seemed pretty well armed.

I don't mean to sound crude, but, at least that story had a happy ending. Nothing sad about a bunch of scum killing each other. :)
 
Buck, you're right that the story was being used advance more gun control here, but Jorg brought up a good point as well. I made it sound like that none of our guns were being used in Mexico and that is not true. If we are to win against gun control we ourselves must be honest and try to get our facts straight. Otherwise we are no better than the other side.
 
Help me out here, I missed the part of the article where it said that none of the guns used by criminals in Mexico ever came from the US. Which paragraph was that in?

It didn't. But it did say government officials are providing weapons to criminals.

They get their automatic weapons from South and Central America as well as from China (probably Cuba too).

I'm sure they're very careful to ensure those weapons don't fall into the wrong hands.

And their president is criticizing our laws????
 
Most of there weapons come from the usual suspects, the cartels are multi billion dollar operations, they are not getting the lame stuff that we are allowed to own through straw man purchases. Only a very small percentage of firearms that end up in Mexico are bought that way.

Most of their stuff comes from Korea, China, France, and Spain, a lot of it is stuff you can't get in this country like RPG's. Also a large percentage of guns are US government supplied. We give them to the Mexican military as part of our aid to them to help fight the drug war, and they go and sell them to the cartels.

Watch Lord of War, those are the kind of guys that help supply the cartels with the weapons they need.
 
Help me out here, I missed the part of the article where it said that none of the guns used by criminals in Mexico ever came from the US. Which paragraph was that in?
Sorry, Jorg, but you missed the whole point of the story and of the OP's meaning. :eek:

The OP (Tony50ae)said nothing about
none of the guns used by criminals in Mexico
, he said that these were OWNED by official gov't entities and caused mass murders. The OP was correct in what he stated.
 
he said that these were OWNED by official gov't entities and caused mass murders.

Actually, he didn't say that either. As the OP already admitted, he should have worded it differently. The original post clearly implied that this article was the silver bullet against the argument that guns come from the US. My comment was merely to point out that one data point doesn't account for all the guns in Mexico and it is intellectually dishonest of us to pretend that it does.
 
My original post had I worded it the way I meant would not be the silver bullet, but another arguement to show that criminals if they want guns they will get them no matter what the law says. I mean sheesh, they had access to legal guns that were meant to help prison officials keep control of the prisoners. The important thing is to not let other countries problems affect OUR right the keep and bear arms. To prove to the antis that hey look, these weapons are not ALL coming from us but from their country as well. Jorg was right to point out my error. As I said before, we gun owners must be right in showing our side. So what if the antis lie. Their lies are finally catching up to them as we see the tide of gun control turn.
 
The original post clearly implied that this article was the silver bullet against the argument that guns come from the US.

During WW2, we provided arms to the Chinese so they could fight the Japanese. 25 years later, the Chinese gave the same weapons to the Viet Cong to kill Americans with. So, by the antis' thought process...We provided the weapons that killed 58,000 of our sons in Vietnam. Therefore we are to blame for those deaths.

See how it works?


The antis don't really care that they came through Guatemala or Salvador. They only care that they were made here. In their minds...and to suit their agendae...that's all that matters. American weapons end up in the hands of thugs in Mexico...therefore, we are arming violent drug cartels.

I have no doubt that American guns get across the border into Mexico. If Mexican criminals can smuggle drugs in, our criminals can smuggle guns out. I also have no doubt that the numbers are downright puny compared to what gets there from other sources.
 
Read today they just dug up 51 bodies in a mass grave. That prison guards would "FURNISH GUNS" to cartel members, let them out of prison to go kill, (recently slaughtered 17 people at a party, including women and children) then let them back into prison.
 
by me :
he said that these were OWNED by official gov't entities and caused mass murders.

Actually, the "he" I was refering to was the reporter and the article to which we've all, I presumed, are referencing. It did say that the guns belonged to the guards who worked at the prison. I'll have to assume that everyone here will have to admit that the guns that were used IN THESE MENTIONED MASS MURDERS were prison guards' guns.

by 1911tuner :
I have no doubt that American guns get across the border into Mexico. If Mexican criminals can smuggle drugs in, our criminals can smuggle guns out. I also have no doubt that the numbers are downright puny compared to what gets there from other sources.
And it's possible that the guards' guns were at one time in the USA. That has little to do with it because the guns are now owned and distributed by the Mexican prison system to their guards.
 
Harold Hongju Koh, "A World Drowning in Guns" (Fordham Law Review, 2003), is a study promoting international gun control. Buried in a footnote is this little gem in regard to illegal arms traffick in the Americas:

"The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms and the United States Custom Service, for example, have engaged in interdiction and investigative efforts along the southwest border of the United States, and U.S. attorneys in that region have increased their efforts to prosecute arms traffickers caught attempting to smuggle firearms into the United States."

Obviously the full auto machineguns and rocket propelled grenades used in the Mexican drug cartel wars did not come from Walmarts in Arizona or gunshows in Texas. What is overlooked is the real problem in my not so humble opinion: illegal full auto machineguns and other light weapons have been coming into the US from Mexico with the illegal drugs.

Los Zetas is well armed and dangerous, but their weapons are not from CA-AZ-Tx Walmarts or gunshows. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Zetas

As Maxim Lott pointed out recently, about 80% of the weapons recovered from crime in Mexico are obviously of Asian, Latin American, Middle Eastern, African or European origin. Of the 20% that appear to be American origin and submitted to ATF for tracing, 90% do trace to US sources. 90% of 20% is about 17%-18% of the total. A lot of those US guns were weapons sold by the US govt to the Mexican military and police, diverted in Mexico to the drug cartels. There is not a flood of guns from the US to Mexico from gunshops or gun shows. If anything, the dangerous illegal traffick is Mexico to the US. One more reason to close our border.
 
But I thought Mexican criminals got their weapons from the US

.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/0...ates-guns-let-carry-massacre/?test=latestnews



Mexican prosecutors say prison guards lent killers guns, let them out to carry out massacre

Published July 25, 2010

| Associated Press

MEXICO CITY (AP) — Guards and officials at a prison in northern Mexico allegedly let inmates out, lent them guns and sent them off in official vehicles to carry out drug-related killings, including the massacre of 17 people last week, prosecutors said Sunday.

After carrying out the killings the inmates would return to their cells, the Attorney General's Office said in a revelation that was shocking even for a country wearied by years of drug violence and corruption.

"According to witnesses, the inmates were allowed to leave with authorization of the prison director ... to carry out instructions for revenge attacks using official vehicles and using guards' weapons for executions," office spokesman Ricardo Najera said at a news conference.

The director of the prison in Gomez Palacio in Durango state and three other officials were placed under a form of house arrest pending further investigation. No charges have yet been filed.

Prosecutors said the prison-based hit squad is suspected in three mass shootings, including the July 18 attack on a party in the city of Torreon, which is near Gomez Palacio. In that incident, gunmen fired indiscriminately into a crowd of mainly young people in a rented hall, killing 17 people, including women.

Police found more than 120 bullet casings at the scene, and Najera said tests matched those casings to four assault rifles assigned to guards at the prison.

Similar ballistics tests linked the guns to earlier killings at two bars in Torreon, the capital of northern Coahuila state, he said. At least 16 people were killed in those attacks on Feb. 1 and May 15, local media reported.

Najera blamed the killings on disputes between rival drug cartels. "Unfortunately, the criminals also carried out cowardly killings of innocent civilians, only to return to their cells," he said.

Coahuila and neighboring Durango are among several northern states that have seen a spike in drug-related violence that authorities attribute to a fight between the Gulf cartel and its former enforcers, known as the Zetas.

Mexico has long had a problem with investigating crimes, catching criminals and convicting people. Reports estimate less than 2 percent of crimes in Mexico result in prison sentences. But Sunday's revelation suggests that even putting cartel gunmen in prison may not prevent them from continuing to commit crimes.

Interior Secretary Francisco Blake said the revelation "can only be seen as a wake-up call for authorities to address, once again, the state of deterioration in many local law enforcement institutions ... we cannot allow this kind of thing to happen again."

Also Sunday, Mexican federal police announced the arrest of an alleged leading member of a drug gang blamed in recent killings and a car-bombing in the violence-ridden border city of Ciudad Juarez, across from El Paso, Texas.

Police described Luis Vazquez Barragan, 39, as a top member of La Linea gang, the enforcement arm of the Juarez cartel, saying he received orders directly from cartel boss Vicente Carrillo Fuentes.

Vazquez Barragan allegedly organized payments, moved drugs and oversaw a system of safe houses in and around Ciudad Juarez.

Police said he held the same rank as fugitive gang leader Juan Pablo Ledezma, though Vazquez Barragan is not named on reward or most-wanted lists published by the Attorney General's Office, as Ledezma is.

La Linea has been blamed for a car bomb that killed three people July 15 in Ciudad Juarez and for two separate shootings March 13 that killed a U.S. consular employee and two other people connected to the consulate.

Police did not say when they caught Vazquez Barragan, but he was allegedly in possession of about a half-kilogram (pound) of cocaine and two guns.

His arrest led to a raid on a safe house where authorities detained four suspects and freed a kidnap victim.

Also Sunday, the Attorney General's Office said soldiers on patrol in Ciudad Madero in the border state of Tamaulipas seized an arsenal of about three dozen guns, 17 grenades and thousands of bullets in a house.

Elsewhere in Tamaulipas, police and prosecutors raided a lot full of truck-pulled tankers in the border city of Reynosa and seized two loaded with oil of a type sometimes stolen from the pipelines of the state-owned Petroleos Mexicanos. Nore than a dozen other tankers and freight containers were also seized.

Mexican drug cartels have allegedly become involved in increasingly sophisticated thefts of fuel and oil from Mexico's pipelines.

In the Pacific coast state of Guerrero, authorities reported Sunday they had found the bullet-ridden bodies of six men dumped in various locations, including three in or around the resort of Acapulco. Two of the dead men were identified as people kidnapped earlier in the month.

.
 
They did!

We gave Mexico money to fight drugs & crime, the Mexican government bought guns for the guards, guards gave the (US supplied) guns to the bad guys.

The bad guys used US guns.:banghead:
 
But I thought Mexican criminals got their weapons from the US

I can't stand drugs and what they've done and continue to do to the youth of this country, the USA that is.

And I can't stand hearing that the Mexican drug cartels in Mexican-US border towns get their weapons from gun shops that are a stones toss across the border in the USA. This argument makes no sense when you hear of gun battles between cartels and/or law abiding citizens where the cartels use fully automatic weapons. Those gun shops do NOT sell fully automatic weapons. In my opinion the guns and other forms of support for the drug cartels comes from their government officials. The government is corrupt.

In my opinion we (the USA) are doing business with a corrupt Mexican government. The Mexican government officials are in bed with the drug dealers and getting rich from this relationship. Then they also take the money we (the USA) give them on a regular basis to help them FIGHT drugs!

We're (the USA) doing the same darn thing in Afghanistan. That "LEADER" Karzi is a real piece of work! He's turned into precisely the type of leader we've fought to ouster. I do NOT trust that guy for one millisecond!

Just what the hell is going on with our policy makers both Democrats as well as Republicans??
In my humble opinion they have all screwed the pooch and we the people must bear the brunt of their treachery.
 
Without getting too political and causing a thread lock, which I suspect will happen before long, I would say that we are largely to blame for the cartel violence, but not because of our gun laws as many politicians and gun control proponents claim. We're to blame because we created the black market to begin with. There is a huge demand and a LOT of money to be made. Someone will fill that demand, the profit incentive is just too strong.

Someone who sells real military weapons in bulk will also fill that demand, again, the profit incentive. I mean good God, have you seen some of the pictures of busts in Mexico?
gunplay-cartel-roundup-slide.jpg

At a glance, I see two SBRs, a couple M203s, a dozen or so 40mm HE rounds, a couple dozen frag grenades, and what I'm 90% sure are real M16s. Yeah, they bought those over the counter at a gun store in Texas :rolleyes:

I'm actually surprised I'm not seeing more Eastern Bloc stuff like AKs, PKMs, and RPGs. I guess they're getting most of their hardware from the Mexican military and other South American militaries [who in turn had gotten their hardware from the U.S.] rather than from the general international black market.

But hey, why don't they just put up a bunch of signs along the U.S./Mexican border facing towards the U.S. that say "Gun Free Zone"? That'd stop any smuggling, just in case.
 
Well Mexico's El Presidenta would have us think that. After all that why he came to the states to tell us to reinstate the "assault weapon ban". Furthermore NATO just wants to take EVERYONES guns. I love the fact that the rest of the world wants us to follow their demands and the current administration is just eating it up. VOTE IN NOVEMBER AND IN 2012!!!!!!
 
See the problem is going back to the original numbers (as in x percent of x percent of x percent of firearms, if I remember correctly)

The US supplied huge numbers of firearms throughout Latin America, so yeah, there are US made guns

But why would they bother to buy a SEMI AUTOMATIC AR for $700 when they can buy 3 M-16's from Nicaragua or Guatemala???
 
The weapons and ammo go from our feds to their feds to their criminals. And both our feds and their feds blame civilian gun owners for all of it.

Kind of makes you wonder whether there's any difference at all between any of them, doesn't it? Our feds create the laws that make business for their cartels, and their cartels give work to their feds. Everyone wins.
 
Hi Cosmoline,


Well said...


I woke up this morning, thinking that if 'The New World' had been arrived to by Castaways Gangs/Corporations/Agencies, then, the old William Golding Novel-then-Film "Lord of the Flies" would have been closely parallelled, only with 'characters' who for the most part, were rival corporations and bureaucracies and agencies of one kind or another, vieing and internacine-scheming in uneasy pro-tem alliences, subserviences, and co-operations, or blatant competition, for the various orders of spoils...according to how the spoils flow and are disbursed.

That such might be sublimated a little, or mystified, need not fool the naive pilgrim.
 
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All rhetorical hair-splitting aside, the article makes ridiculous the notion that American guns are a core issue in the drug-gang problem. It gives us a convenient tool to use against the antis with when they cry about American guns getting into Mexico.

Reports estimate less than 2 percent of crimes in Mexico result in prison sentences.
I wish Yahoo had cited this statistic, as it is especially shocking.

The problems the article mentions: low conviction rates, corruption at every level of government, the lucrative nature of the drug trade, etc. - add up to make the anti-gun argument spitting in the ocean.

Of course the best argument about guns going over the border is to simply say "severely punish those responsible for illegally importing guns into Mexico."

KR
 
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