West German or maybe German PP Value

[HoosierQ]

I have a line on a Walther PP. 7.65. The fellow didn't know if this was a German or West German PP. Obviously if it were "German" one would want a pre-war one. Says he looked in the "Blue Book". Not sure how he did that without knowing pre-war German vs. Post War West German.

Regardless. He is making noises about $500. "Pristine" condition. Let's say it is a desireable item (not a 1944 model for example). $500 in the ballpark? He's got ammo too.

 

[Float Pilot]

I would pay $500 for even the least desirable years. Maybe not for a French made one though...
Ask him which town is listed as the manufacture site. Zella or Ulm. ???

 

[HoosierQ]

I will find that out.

 

[Gordon]

It better be in the box and mint condition for $500 IMHO, unless it comes with $100 or more ammo (5 boxes). I bought a LNIB with papers and factory target one made in Germany (a border guard turn in) a couple years ago for $350 at the LGS. I see nice ones in .32 quite often for $400 , for some reason the PPKs go for a bit more and faster. A .22 PP or a .380 PP is another bird and the .22 ones approach $1K.

 

[HoosierQ]

He says he's got a lot of ammo. Maybe not 5 boxes but he's got quite a bit. He tells me he's looked in the blue book. Not quite sure just how he did that without knowing whether it is W. German or German or Nazi etc. Doesn't know what year. Never looked in the Blue Book myself so who knows.

I want one of these but I'd like to know a little more first. Haven't seen it yet and we're just in the talking stage. He hasn't set a price yet.

I have asked for the year of mfg., city of mfg., W. German or German etc. Hoping he'll get I know at least a little about this so that maybe his price will suit me. I'm not gonna take a bath on it however. He's walked away from a gun I am selling. I'll walk away.

But I want it and if it's nice and the price is right, I'll get it.

We'll see. The horse trading is underway.

 

[Jim K]

If the gun is a pre-war PP in "pristine" condition, it just might be worth a lot more than $500. And some, with special options or certain markings, can go into big bucks. We need good pictures.

Jim

 

[HoosierQ]

I have been promised that photos will be taken and delivered to me over the weekend. Pics of the gun as a whole and close-ups of markings.

 

[Ignition Override]

HoosierQ:
At today's typically small gun show near Memphis, a guy had his PP listed at approx. $700.

The only other Walthers I noticed at the show were a West German PPK listed at $650 and an Interarms (S&W) at $550, just for comparison.
But as these were gun show prices, despite appearing to be in excellent condition, they could be a bit above average market value.

Has the PP's owner tested the gun and checked the brass?
I recently bought a good WW2 Mauser Hsc, and after finally checking the ejected brass, all of it had bulges due to a previous nitwit owner's modification to the feed ramp. A replacement barrel (came with slide) cost $240. Was very lucky to win it on Gunbroker, as Nobody else had
a 7,65 barrel (Numerich, Brownell's and many others).

 

[HoosierQ]

Pictures

Well I have some pictures. If they mean what I think they mean, I doubt I will get my hands on this thing. There is no mention of "West German" which has the obvious implications. There are some markings on the backstrap that are quite meaningful, if authentic.

 

[bannockburn]

The NSDAP stands for the National Socialist German Workers Party. If the markings are authentic (and they look like they are), there's a very high probability this is a pre-war/wartime issue Walther PP.

 

[bannockburn]

I believe the "SA der NSDAP" stands for "Sturmabteilung (Assault Division/Stormtrooper), of the NSDAP. The SA were the paramilitary organization of the National Socialist German Workers Party. The "Gruppe Westfalen" would be the SA unit located in the geographic region in northwest Germany that is now known as Westphalia.

 

[Ignition Override]

bannockburn is correct.
The SA were the victims in "The Night Of The Long Knives", from what I remember.

A local friend from Essen can confirm this.
Mein Freund just confirmed the widespread rumours about the "lifestyle" of the SA leader, Ernst Roehm.

 

[Mike OTDP]

The gun is definitely a pre-war PP. All Zella-Melhis Walthers were made in 1945 or earlier. The unit markings are for the Sturm Abteilung, the Nazi paramilitary group. They were gutted during the "Night of the long knives" by the SS.

An unmarked PP from that era would fetch $500-$900, depending on condition. The photos show a gun on the high end of that range. But with SA markings? Walthers with NSDAP provenance are fetching $1200 or more.

My advice would be to hold onto it and let it appreciate in value. Otherwise, one of the online auction sites.

 

[Kabal]

As Mike explained, all Walthers made in Zella-Mehlis are wartime or pre-wartime guns.
Zella-Mehlis is a place in former East Germany that was occupied by the Soviets in 1945. That's why Walther had to move to Ulm after WWII.

I have no idea if the markings on the backstrap are genuine or fake. If they're the real deal, they obviously add a lot of value to the gun.

Using google, I found a similar gun that was apparently sold at two different auctions:

http://www.icollector.com/SA-Gruppe...matic-Pistol-with-SA-Marked-Holster_i17060929

http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/51/lid/1729


These guns are also mentioned in Philip Peterson's "Standard Catalog of Military Firearms". I hope this link works:

https://books.google.de/books?id=af...ther pp sa der nsdap gruppe westfalen&f=false


If you think the markings on the backstrap are genuine, I wouldn't hesitate buying it, if I were you. Keep in mind it's just an inanimate object.

 

[Ignition Override]

Kabal: How about post-WW2 .380 PPKs which were inscribed "Made in West Germany"? I would like to look up the time span for this production.
My impression is that they were issued to police (only in the Bundesrepublik?), but what approx. value do they have if in excellent or near-mint condition?

A guy living an hour from here has one in near-mint, but saving more "married guy" collector-handgun cash will take weeks.

 

[Onmilo]

Kabal: How about post-WW2 .380 PPKs which were inscribed "Made in West Germany"? I would like to look up the time span for this production.
My impression is that they were issued to police (only in the Bundesrepublik?), but what approx. value do they have if in excellent or near-mint condition?

A guy living an hour from here has one in near-mint, but saving more "married guy" collector-handgun cash will take weeks.

European Police used .32 acp Walthers, they never issued .380s
"Made in West Germany" indicates a French Manurhin produced Walther than was test fired and proofed in the old Walther plant.
.380 caliber Manurhin made pistols were predominately shipped to the U.S. Market.
There were no Walther PP/PPK pistols made in West Germany from 1946 until 1987 when production resumed at the new Walther plant.

 

[Ignition Override]

Onmilo: Thanks very much. Is the quality of the Manurhin PPK among the highest of all versions of PPK .380 Autos?

Could the value of one in excellent condition average about $650 in the southern US?

Spending hours trying to learn about various post-war Mauser Hsc and PPK production locations versus strictly importers (Interarms), was not nearly enough.

 

[Onmilo]

Onmilo: Thanks very much. Is the quality of the Manurhin PPK among the highest of all versions of PPK .380 Autos?

Could the value of one in excellent condition average about $650 in the southern US?

Spending hours trying to learn about various post-war Mauser Hsc and PPK production locations versus strictly importers (Interarms), was not nearly enough.

$650 is a good price if the gun includes original box and goodies, especially the spare magazine which is normally a non finger extension flat bottom mag.

.380s tend to command more $$ in the U.S. than the .32s and .22s & especially .25s run even higher in value.

Manurhin made guns are extremely good quality, every bit the equal of pre war German made guns and feature better sights and extractor assemblies to boot. HTH

 

[commygun]

$500 for a pristine PP of any vintage would be a smoking deal around here. I'd grab it in a heartbeat. It absolutely isn't going down in value.

 

[HoosierQ]

$500 for a pristine PP of any vintage would be a smoking deal around here. I'd grab it in a heartbeat. It absolutely isn't going down in value.

Well due to my thorough efforts at investigation, the price went up. So be it. Won't end up in my collection if the SA stuff turns out to be authentic. It sure looks authentic but of course war memorabilia is often faked. I'd pay $500 or $600 for it but I think he's now got his heart set on twice that. I want a shooter. I was hoping for a West German or a Manhurin actually. It's looking more and more like a genuine pre-war SA pistol. Collector's item.

 

[Kabal]

Kabal: How about post-WW2 .380 PPKs which were inscribed "Made in West Germany"? I would like to look up the time span for this production.

Unfortunately, I am not familiar enough with the American market to tell you anything about the PPK's value. Here in Germany, post-war PPs and PPKs are common and inexpensive guns.

I'm sure others can tell you you what different versions of the PP series are worth in the US. You might also check gunbroker for completed auctions.


I can't really answer your question about the production span of the .380 PPK marked "West Germany" either.

What I know about the production span of the post-war PPK in general:

From 1952 to the 1970s or 1980s, PPKs marked "Ulm" were "pre-produced" by Manurhin in France and then finished and proofed in Ulm. They were marked "Made in West Germany" from the early 60s.

I know that Walther produced the PP in Ulm in the late 80s after the contract with Manurhin expired, and I guess that they also produced the PPK... which means there might be some PPKs marked "West Germany" made in the late 80s.

I don't know when exactly they started or stopped producing the PPK in .380 though. I found a list of serial numbers, but only for the .32.
The best place to look for this kind of infirmation should be the Walther Forums:
http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/...-pay-how-much-worth-questions-start-here.html

My impression is that they were issued to police (only in the Bundesrepublik?), but what approx. value do they have if in excellent or near-mint condition?

I'm not aware of any police agency in Germany adopting this version. As far as I know, both German police and the Bundeswehr (as P21) adopted the PPK in .32. The German police then switched to 9x19 when terrorism became a problem in the 1970s. I would be rather surprised if another European country's police force used the PP or PPK in .380, although I can't rule it out.

 

[Roadkill]

Don't have anything to add to this informative thread but I'll contribute with this: Its my carry gun - 1974 Ex West German Police in .32.

 

[Float Pilot]

If that gun Hooser was thinking about looked good with a visual inspection, I would fork over $1,000 to $1,200 pretty fast.

 

[HoosierQ]

So what would the impact of having a slide mismatched to the frame on value? There are apparently no markings on the slide whatsoever that would indicate military service. Could there be such a thing as a Walther PP mix master? A civilian slide mated to perhaps the SA frame as shown above? Still working on better pictures. Confirming matching serial numbers too. I figure I get some kind of win either way. If this IS NOT collectable, I can buy it and shoot it. If it is, I've helped a guy start putting a kid through college (well buy the freshman books anyway).

 

[bannockburn]

HoosierQ

Not sure about the mix and match theory but the PP should have a commercial proof mark if it was manufactured before the war. It should appear as a Crown over the letter N. Once war began I believe the proof mark was changed to an Eagle over the letter N. If it was designated as a military sidearm then it would have an Eagle over a Swastika; if it was police issue, then it would have a slightly smaller Eagle over the letter N.

I would think that a pre-war PP in pristine condition (provided the SA/NSDAP markings are authentic to the gun), could easily price the gun some 2.5 to 3 times (and possibly even higher), it's original asking price.