What .223Rem. bullet for Whitetails?

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MinnMooney

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Minnesota just O.K.'d using any .22 caliber cartridge (centerfire) or larger on deer this year for the first time. I really don't agree with that because there are so many poor shots out there and they need much larger calibers to compensate for their lack of precision. All of my worries are moot because it's legal.

My neighbor is as happy as a pig in mud about the ruling by our DNR and is telling everyone that he will hunt with his AR-15 during the whitetail season. I tried to talk him into buying an upper in a caliber that is more appropriate but noooooooo, :banghead: it's .223 all the way, baby. :fire:

"So....", says I, "how about letting me load a bullet that at least has a good chance of killing the deer if you do your part?" "Sure", he said.

Okay, now the ball is in my court. That's my question to you-all. What would be a couple of choices for putting venison in the freezer?:confused:

Data : He shoots an AR-15 with a 16" barrel and a 1:9" twist so I'm lookin' at a weight range of 60gr-69gr (unless some of you have had better luck with a slightly different weight). We hunt fairly thick woods so our shots are 50% @ 60yds or less; 40% @ 60-100yds and 10% out to 150 yds.

Give me some brands, weights and styles of bullets that I can load for this dude.:rolleyes:
 
If someone feels that they "have" to use a .22 centerfire,the 55gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw is the lightest"acceptable" .224 bullet that should be considered.
 
Im going to try my luck on Doe only, with my 223,If i dont get a few with my bow first,I just loaded some tonight for my 223,Im going to try the Hornady 60 gr,I still have a few months to see if I can get 1/2 moa,I can get 1/4 with 40 and 50 Noslers b-t.
Now most of the heavier bullets are not really meant for killing game,but killing paper,dont use any hollow points,like in the 70 and 80 gr,
If i cant get my rifle to shot well.with the 60 gr,hornady,I'll try the nosler partions,or a berger.maybe bear claw,I loaded 22 gr of H335 and 22 gr of imr 3031.Maybe i'll get a chance to shoot tomrrow,
Im shooting Tikka 3 lite,
 
matrem : I love the looks of the Trophy Bonded Bear Claws but I think my neighbor will boch at $48 per 50 bullets with a finished product of around $1.25 each!

280Shooter : I don't know about Berger bullets. They're all labeled "Match" which usually means that they are modified hollow points i.e., their "hollow" area is very shallow and they won't expand.

I was thinking about the Hornady 60 grain in either the V-Max, SP or HP.

Has anyone used Barnes' Triple Shok X-bullet? I see thay have a 62gr lead-free bullet. They're only $28/50 bullets. sumpnz : Sorry, I was answering another while you were submitting an answer. Yes, I think 1:9 can handle 70gr TSX bullets. The 70grain'rs cost about $32/50. I think I can sell him on that. Reloads should cost about 80-85 cents ea.

Shawnee : No.... I certainly wouldn't trust him to hit a deer in the neck or head. I've had to help him track way too many wounded deer.
 
I've used Barnes bullets, though from before the TSX came out, and in 6.5mm, not 5.56mm. In that case I used a 140gr XLC (the coated, blue X-bullets that have since been discontinued in favor of the TSX) handloaded to 2850fps. I took a shot on a very large cow elk at ~110-120 yards. It went through the left shoulder, lungs, and shattered the next to last rib on the off side. This was beyond a quartering shot, probably 20-30deg off from head on. Total penetration had to be over 30". She ran 30 yards and piled up.

In your friends case, I'd use the heaviest TSX that will group well enough, and try to avoid the shoulder bones, at least on the near side. Even a step up to .243 and I'd probably try to break the front shoulder, but even the wunder-bullets like the Barnes are still so light that I'd not want to trust them against heavy bones. Ribs should not pose any problem.
 
"I've had to help him track way too many wounded deer."


UGH! :(

Well, MinnMooney... sounds like you're likely to be tracking more wounded deer soon. Neither larger bullets nor even larger calibers really do much to make up for sloppy shooting. I know a lot of people think they do but that's 95% fairy tale.

One of my neighbors has shot three or four deer in the chest with that 55-gr. V-max and, though the deer didn't drop in their tracks, none of 'em made it more than about 40yds. There were no exit holes and the lungs were a mess. All of them were close to (but less than) 200yds.

If you elect a really stout bullet, I would try to convince him to try for "through-the-shoulders" shots. That's counter to some other advice you've gotten but it jibs with what I've seen my neighbor do successfully when cropping deer.

Good Luck!
 
"I've had to help him track way too many wounded deer."
I've had to track deer that he's shot with arrows and .300 Win Mag! I was also called upon to help track a bear that he shot from about 35 feet....... ya, you read it right, feet. The bear only ran about 50-75 yards but it left little blood. I'd shot a bear (about the same size) 3 days earlier with a Marlin 336 in .30-30Win and it bled like a stuck pig for the 30 yards that it ran. It never got out of my sight. I haven't had to track any of the 12-13 deer or the bear that I've shot in the past 10 years and yet we end up tracking almost all of my neighbor's shot animals. Sometimes they bleed great for 1/2 a mile and then just stop! One deer took me 12 hours to track and then I lost it when it jumped a fence. One drop on the far side and then.... nothing. I don't know what he does wrong but I know he and I are both getting frustrated.
That's our history and now you know why I tried my darndest to talk him out of using a .223Rem on deer.
 
Winchester 64gr power point factory loading.

Reloading I use Speer 70 gr semi spitzer (it works even in 1x12 rifling)
 
My favorite .224 caliber bullet for deer is the Speer 70 gr. Semi Spitzer. I've taken two deer with this bullet. One was a through the deer lung shot from 360 yards with a 22-250 and the other was from about 80 to 100 yards with a 222. In the later case, the bullet entered medial to the left shoulder and came out the right chest.

This bullet provides excellent accuracy in my 1:12 twist barrels and I've even heard some use it with good success in 1:14 twist barrels.
 
If your twist rate is acceptible, the heavier bullet the better. That being said, I'm using 62g Barnes X bullets. The Barnes web site will show you which bullet is best suited for your twist rate (number of inches for one revolution of bullet down the barrel).

Although I have yet to actually shoot a whitetail or black bear with it, that is what I'm using.

The X is supposed to remain intact, even after hitting bone. From what I've read (and I've researched this quite a bit), the X out-performs most all other bullets in the wound channel and depth of penetration.

The X design apparently stays intact, making the bullet do more damage on its way through (considering the speed involved).

I concur with previous posts that state you must make a clean shot, or don't even bother pulling the trigger. That goes with just about any rifle.
 
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I've taken a lot of deer with .22cf's. They DO work, contrary to what many "nay-sayers" who haven't used them, but know "conventional" wisdom, will tell you.

My experience with the .223 in the AR format is he should use any soft-point bullet of 55grs or heavier to include the excellent Hornady 60gr soft-point (my personal favorite), the Sierra 65gr SptBoatTail (#2 favorite), the 63gr Sierra semi-pointed soft point (ties with the #2), or the 70gr Speer semi-pointed softpoint.

I've taken many deer, as well as loaded for a friend who he and his entire family use a T/C contender carbine w/16,5"bbl using the Hornady and Sierra 55gr Soft Points.

With reasonable shot placement (same as what you'd use for a 30/30 or .243) it will bring down the venison as well as the aforementioned reliable standards.

The closest deer I've taken with a .223 in AR, was a 50' neck shot with the deer facing me, shot with the 60gr Hornady SPt at 2,900fps from 14.5" Bushmaster AK-shorty. (26.0gr of BLC2). The bullet entered the neck, broke neck and exited, then struck the shoulder, broke the head of the humerous (upper bone in arm) exited behind the shoulder, entered the hip, glanced off the pelvis an exited the "cheek" of the butt. Yes, three entry and exit wounds ! (deer was "alerted" to my presence when I raised the rifle, and was slightly crouched and ready to bolt.....Deer was a 160lb field-dressed 8pt buck. Needless to say DRT.

The longest shot was a doe taken on a gasline ROW at lased 335yds. The broadside heart/lung shot took the top of the heart and broke one rib on entry and two on exit leaving a 1.5" exit wound. Deer ran ~35yds and dropped. This is "nominal" performance.

Don't use the various "plastic tipped" bullets and most hollow points as they are too frangible. Ask me how I know !


FWIW, percentage wise, I've had much worse luck with the .243wcf and I've never used anything lighter than the 80gr bullets. Hornady, Speer, Sierra, and Nosler bullets have all resulted in lost deer with less than a spine/cns hit.

(Many/most of the deer I've taken were on collecting permits or crop damage/depredation permits, so I've shot a LOT of deer. Many more than the average hunter in a lifetime. -I'm a retired GameWarden/Wildlife biologist-) Several hundred to be more precise.
 
Anyone know if a 1 in 12" will work with the all-copper 63 gr Barnes TSX? I'm doubting, since it's so long.

I like the sound of that 70 gr Speer semi-spitzer.
 
"FWIW, percentage wise, I've had much worse luck with the .243wcf and I've never used anything lighter than the 80gr bullets. Hornady, Speer, Sierra, and Nosler bullets have all resulted in lost deer with less than a spine/cns hit."


Got any theories about why the disappointing preformance, Goose ?

That question is not a "challenge" - I'm just really curious. :)


:cool:
 
Wasn't this a thread about a month ago? Anyway, my kids have killed a jillion deer with a 55g core-lokt. It's so not a big deal.
 
PremiumSauses

I think you might be pushing the weight there on the 1 in 12 spin. There needs to be enough spin to keep the bullet stable, you don't want it traveling sideways.

The gun I use the 62 X bullet in has a 1 in 9.

You could always try a box (if you load your own).

This is copied and pasted from the Barnes web site for the Triple Shock X:
22 Caliber
Diameter Weight Description S.D. B.C. CAT#
NEW .224" 45 gr TSX FB .128 .188 22441
.224" 53 gr TSX FB .151 .204 22443
.224" 62 gr TSX BT .177 .287 22460*
.224" 70 gr TSX BT .199 .314 22470*

*Recommended twist rate is 1:7 - 1:9 for #22460
*Recommended twist rate is 1:7 - 1:8 for #22470

As you see, the heavier (62 and 70g) bullets need a faster spin.
 
I've got one suggestion.....

AIM before you shoot!:rolleyes:

If you are having this much difficulty killing a deer or black bear I'd say you've got a user interface problem.
 
All I know about deer hunting with a .223 is DO NOT use V-Max bullets. They are great for blowing up turtles and p-dogs but wont penetrate through a wet dollar bill.
 
The Winchester 64 grain power point would be the best... IMHO.


I would absolutely not use a V-Max or similarly constructed bullet. The risk of a bullet not penetrating a rib or a shoulder... and leaving a nasty flash wound.. is too great.


Neck or head shots sound great in theory... but a properly constructed bullet will not expand if you miss the spine and hit the trachea... then the deer is left with a nasty lingering wound.

Similar issue with botched brain shots and deer wandering around with their lower jaw shot off.

The entire head is not brain. A deer's brain is about the size of a peach.
 
I would agree with the 55gr. soft points and the 60gr. Hornady and 62gr. Nosler.

As to the 55gr. V-max - all I can say is that last summer my neighbor (shooting on ag. damage permits) killed (and recovered) at least 19 deer with 19 shots using the 55gr. V-max from a .22/250 and head or neck shots. Think of that whatever you will.

It's true a head shot could result in a lower jaw shot off. In fact, I saw that happen when someone fired at a running deer. I've shot many deer in the head with no such problem though.
It's also true a shot to the neck could sever the windpipe instead of breaking the neck (or wrecking the juglar). A deer so shot isn't going to last much longer, if at all, than one shot squarely through the lungs.
Again, I've used the various neck shots on many deer and not lost one.

FWIW - the shot I like least shot is the "through the lungs" shot and I work very hard to avoid it even if it means I simply don't shoot.

However - it doesn't sound like your friend is too caring about where he lands his shots at all and that makes for an entirely different level of problem.

To be clear... I am not advocating for the V-max bullets, just reporting experience/observation. I've killed 2 or 3 deer with the 58-gr. V-max from a .243 and they would not be in my top five or six choices either. The OP is welcome to take all that however they choose. As I said - I think caliber and bullet choice are aomng the more minor of his friend's problems. A larger caliber with larger bullets won't compensate for careless shots.
 
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I suppose with shots 200 yards or less and deer that are standing around and the gun on a good rest, the explosive bullets would be fine for head shots.

Generally in the deep woods during deer season, you don't get too many shots like that (at least I don't).
 
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