What accuracy do you expect at 100-yards from a 20" AR with A2 sights?

[nitesite]

With a rest, I regularly shoot 2½-MOA using my handloads at 100-yards with my 20" stainless steel barrelled AR-15 that has A2 sights.

Recently, I shot one group that went under an inch but that was obviously not something I can ever repeat. It was a fluke.

Am I missing something or is 2½-MOA considered acceptable for iron sights?

 

[W.E.G.]

You can probably do better than 2.5 MOA with that rifle.

The performance you cite is proof of that.

Few people can consistently shoot a rifle to its potential, especially with iron sights.

 

[trickyasafox]

with stock A-2 sights, you could probably do 2moa, some freak-exceptional shooters could do better.

you upgrade to some finer apertures and finer blade, sight with more adjustment, I think you could get an honest 1moa.

I've seen it, I had a fluke 3 shot group once that was close, (I did 1.5 in and bout flipped) so I don't think its unreasonable.

Tell ya what a big part of it is, using a fine enough target to focus on. big black targets blob out the sight for me. try a small 1 in orange dot or equivalent and I bet you'll focus on it better.

 

[Limeyfellow]

2 1/2 inches is not bad with the standard sights. on an a2. 4 inches MOA mechanically fired is enough to pass the accuracy test for M16a4s for the military, and 2 inches is doing good with the iron sights. Put on some better peep sights you probably bring that down further though.

 

[Swampy]

Tell ya what a big part of it is, using a fine enough target to focus on. big black targets blob out the sight for me. try a small 1 in orange dot or equivalent and I bet you'll focus on it better.

Bet he won't..... This is a basic misunderstanding of proper military aperture / front post iron sight usage. You never NEVER focus your eye on the target. You ALWAYS focus on the front sight post. The human eye is incapable of focusing on two different objects at different distances simultaneously. Physically impossible. The only way to minimize front sight / target misalignment is to focus on the front post. Focus on the post and it becomes much easier to acheive consistent alignment with whatever target you are shooting at. Focus your vision on the target and you will not be able to hold tight groups. The post then fuzzes out and there is no way to keep it centered.

Also, Iron sights work best with a BLACK, rpt. BLACK bull (Maximum contrast to a white-buff target background.) that appears to be the approx same width as the front post. All NRA-CMP Highpower targets are designed with this in mind. Itty bitty target bulls are made for shooting with scopes. The width of a post sight against a tiny bull will leave the human eye too much "slack" that can't easily be eliminated...... groups suffer accordingly.

BTW.... With my Rock River A2 DCM rifle and good handloads I can usually hold 10 shots under 1.5 MOA @ 100 yards...... against a 5.75 MOA BLACK bull... i.e. NRA-CMP MR-31 target.

Best to all,
Swampy

Garands forever

 

[dmftoy1]

Off a bench with handloads I shoot about the same as you do . . . .I can PROVE that the limiting factor is ME in my case though as my AR has a flat top and if I put on a scope those same handloads easily go under 1 inch and most are around .5. FWIW -

Have a good one,
Dave

 

[lmccrock]

What Swampy said.

nitesite, there may be an issue with your loads. Have you tried factory ammo, or your loads from another rifle? Oh, and what kind of target are you shooting at?

try a small 1 in orange dot or equivalent

I cannot see a 1 in orange dot at 100 yards, let alone line it up on a front post.

Lee

 

[Onmilo]

3 minutes of angle is a good medium for an iron sight A2 full size rifle.
Many shooters expect more from their rifle than they themselves are capable of producing.

You want to find out how accurate the rifle really is, then attach a decent scope and shoot from a steady rest on the bench.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Getting 2.5 MOA is a matter of marksmanship and not (or should not be) accuracy. Accuracy is the precision a firearm is capable of and does not change with the type of sights or the shooter.

The rifle in question should be able to shoot 0.75-1.25 MOA at 100 yards if the barrel is in good shape and the loads are appropriate.

I shoot about 3 MOA with open sights at 100 yards with my AR15 even though when scoped, it will do 1 MOA (by me) and slightly less with a better shooter.

 

[nitesite]

Thanks for the replies, gentlemen.

I'm shooting at 3" black bullseye targets. To tell the truth, I cannot see anything much smaller with my 50-year old eyes. Anything other than black would be very difficult for me unless is was in conjunction with a scope.

I have always been aware of the principle of focusing on the front sight post, so any smaller bullseye fuzzes out too much for a good reference point to aim at.

So from what I gather from the replies, for a guy my age (50) who is shooting with stock aperture and post sights, something around 2" would be doing quite well.

I guess any self-doubt I may have had is fading.

Again, thanks much.

 

[Swampy]

So from what I gather from the replies, for a guy my age (50) who is shooting with stock aperture and post sights, something around 2" would be doing quite well.

2.0 MOA is fine.... and you can probably do BETTER with a larger bull. Find a target with a black bull in the 5.75 to 6.5 MOA range. The MR31, MR21, and SR1 all fall in this range. Downloadable from some websites.

Best,
Swampy

 

[nitesite]

Originally posted by Swampy

2007 NRA Missouri State 600 yard Service Rifle Champion.

Score 774-29X... with an M1 Garand

I am most impressed with your credentials and really appreciate your comments, along with all the others who have encouraged me along.

 

[Slamfire]

Go to your local Highpower reduced course match and you will see some folks who shoot their iron sighted AR's between 1/2 MOA and 3/4 MOA prone slowfire.

I have somewhere buried a 200 clean target with the AR at the reduced course, all that I have with electrons is this 199. The ten ring is about 1.75".

I don't do this all the time, just keep the good targets. "The older I get, the better I was". Yesterday in our local highpower match I tossed a seven prone with my M1a, so my 20 shot group size was 3.8". I am still wondering where that seven came from.....

 

[nitesite]

Wow! That's some impressive performance!

I'm shooting off of the top of a round haybale at another bale staged 100 yards away. Actually, when measured with a 50' tape it came out to 98.25-yards.



Not the best form or technique I can assure you.

But I'm not here to make excuses.

Here's a set of 3" targets I shot at last week. I raised the front sight two clicks to bring the POI into the white so I could photograph my results better.



I was trying to find a sweet spot with a new batch of Varget and Hornady 68-gr HPBT Match bullets. Unfortunately, none of the charges really stood out from the rest as being better.

I'm going to try the larger targets Swampy mentioned. And the reduced course idea is one to consider, along with shooting prone.

I've had some very good 100-yard results using Winchester Power Point 64-gr PSPs which are a flat base bullet. They typically shoot around 2".

 

[Anteater1717]

Try these targets.
http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/Huge Circle on Grid.pdf
http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/Bullseye with Grid.pdf

 

[trickyasafox]

hey maybe those black targets work well for you guys, but I find I have less error with a smaller target. That being said, my hi-power scores are really nothing to brag about, so maybe I should review how I shoot. But a smaller target for me does work better.

 

[30Cal]

2.0 MOA is fine.... and you can probably do BETTER with a larger bull. Find a target with a black bull in the 5.75 to 6.5 MOA range. The MR31, MR21, and SR1 all fall in this range. Downloadable from some websites.

With irons, I shoot my best on a target posted backwards/blank sheet of paper. You've got nothing to focus on BUT the front sight.

 

[Langenator]

Any stock service rifle (M16A2 or A4) is required to shoot 3 MOA at 100m using M855 ball ammo.

With better ammo (like, say, Black Hills Match) they will do better. Green tip ball is good, but not great, ammo

Seems like you're doing slightly better, and you're not a mechanical rest. Good on ya.

 

[rangerruck]

control your trigger technique;slow steady pull, control your breathing, pull the butt into your shoulder a little tighter, and watch your follow through, in other words, don't flinch, don't blink, after the trigger drops; don't remove the squeeze of it from your shoulder, untill WELL AFTER THE SHOT GOES. then check out your group.
when i find myself being dissatisfied with a group that is not moa from one of my mach2's or other rimfires, i immediately think of these four things to concentrate on, and invariably , the next group is better.

that being said, overall, that is a decent group you are shooting...

 

[chauncey]

+1 Swampy

I remember some guy in a funny hat making me scream "clear tip of the front sight post...SIR!" at the top of my lungs about 1000 times.

I think an accurate AR should be able to do 1 moa with decent ammo. days I have my poop together my ban-era HBAR can do it with XM193.

I think a big target is a help with iron sights. try one of those 24x36 red cross targets at cheaper than dirt. they really do a good job of letting you settle into the bull while keeping focus on "clear tip of the..." well, you get it.