What BP for use in flintlock and ball and cap pistols?

[Center fire]

Hi folks, I want to learn more about black powder shooting. The past few days I've been doing research on the internet only to find conflicting information - surprise surprise! Some of the sources I read state flintlock and ball and cap pistols should only be used with black powder while other sources say that black powder substitutes are okay to use and many state it's the preferred powder to use. What I like to know is which is the correct powder to use?

Also, can you recommend books (and/or ebooks) on the subject of how to operate and care for black powder pistols?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Black powder substitutes SUCK in flintlocks. Most folks have to mix BP with the priming powder, or use BP as the prime, so you might as well just use BP. Now anything using a cap will function fine with a BP substitute.

The Lyman Black Powder Handbook will work. The Complete Black Powder Handbook by Sam Fadala will also work.

LD

 

[Crawdad1]

Yes, I completely agree, the Lyman Black Powder Handbook comes highly recommended by everyone.

 

[Center fire]

Thanks for the quick replies. I'll make a note that BP for flintlock and BP/BP sub fir cap and ball.

Thanks for the suggestions on books As well.

 

[Center fire]

I went on line and found two Lyman books on BP. One is titled Lyman Black Powder Handbook (1975 or 1989), the other is Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual 2nd edition. Which one is the one suggested?

 

[BCRider]

If you have the option I'd go for the second edition. The powder hasn't changed but some of the equipment used will be more current if they made enough revisions.

One thing to keep in mind is that you will want to stick with loose powder if using the substitutes. The pellets might work or they might not ignite correctly. The pellets are intended more for the modern inline muzzle loading rifles that use a rather hot firing 209 primer in many cases. On the other hand the hot gases from the cap on a caplock pistol generally has to turn a corner at the end of the nipple and travel along the drum and into the chamber. For loose powder Pyrodex and 777 this isn't an issue. But with with the pellets it may become one.

I don't know about down your way but for myself I can buy proper black powder for a couple of bucks less per lb than Pyrodex. So for myself it's a no brainer which way to go. Being authentic is the cheaper option! ! ! !

 

[MEHavey]

First Rule: With percussion sidelocks, you must use granulated powder (BP or Pyrodex). I strongly recommend real BP if you can possibly get it.

Second Rule: With flintlocks, you must use real BP.

Third Rule (of thumb): 50Cal is a dividing line between 2F and finer 3F. Use 3f below/2F above as starting points. (Pistols/revolvers are 3F in general)

Fourth rule: Caliber is starting [rifle] powder weight in grains -- up to 2X caliber. Most accurate is what matters.

 

[rcflint]

Yes, BP subs don't work well in a flintlock, unless you create a duplex load, with BP at the flash hole. Also, the flash pan works best with 4fg powder.

Cap & ball, 31 to 45 caliber are fine with 3fg, but in a flintlock or percussion single shot, if the caliber is over 50, best to use 2fg.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I'd recommend staying away from the substitutes if you can get proper black powder. They are a poor replacement for the real thing.

As a general rule, pistols are fed 3Fg. Yes, you can fiddle with 4Fg if you are experienced (I use it for my .36 caliber pistols), but 3Fg is good for just about all pistol applications.

If you are shooting flintlock, you'll want finer priming powder. 4Fg is OK...but the best is Swiss Null B. It's 7Fg equivalent, lightning-fast ignition.

Charge weight depends a lot on the gun. The manuals from the maker will have a good starting point. As a rule of thumb, I'd start with 15 grains. Work down if the gun is under .40, work up above that. Bracket it for revolvers, 15 grains should be very close. Smoothbore flintlocks are another matter entirely.

To give you some idea, here's what I'm shooting...
.36 Baumkircher-Billinghurst: .350RB/.010 patch/12 grains Swiss #1 (4F)
.44 E. Paris original percussion pistol: .433 RB/.015 patch/20 grains Swiss #2 (3F)
.44 Hege-Manton smoothbore flintlock: .433RB/.010 patch/30 grains Swiss #1 (Note, I recommend a novice use Swiss #2)
.45 Hege-Remington revolver: .454 RB/Cream of Wheat filler/12.5 grains Swiss #2 for 25 yards/meters, 15 grains for 50 yards/meters
.45 original Remington revolver: .457 RB/Cream of Wheat filler/15 grains Swiss #2
.48 original flintlock dueling pistol: .457RB/.020 patch/30 grains Swiss #2.

WRT books, one of the best is the Dixie Gun Works catalog. The last 60 pages or so are loaded with reference material. There's a British book...I'll add it. Most black powder shooting books are focused on rifle, I really ought to try to write a Black Powder Pistol Manual.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I've a question. For a .54 pistol, what powder? 3F or 2F?

 

[PapaG]

54 pistol would normally use ffg.
Pyrodex pellets, at least for a while, had a layer of black powder on one end to enhance ignition. Haven't bought any for a while so don't know if they still do.
I don't really care for the substitutes and am fortunate to have a stock of old DuPont, Curtiss and Harvey, Elephant, and GOI powders tucked away (away from the house). Someday I'd like to try Swiss.

 

[Center fire]

I really appreciate the feedback. There is so much to learn. I'm going to write down what you shared on an index card.

I'm thinking to start by learning on a flintlock pistol. What caliber would be good to start with? What brands should I look for? I see Traditions, Pedersoli, and Pirate Fashion. The ones I've seen are in the price range I like to start out with until I know this is what I want to get into.

 

[swathdiver]

I'm thinking to start by learning on a flintlock pistol. What caliber would be good to start with? What brands should I look for? I see Traditions, Pedersoli, and Pirate Fashion. The ones I've seen are in the price range I like to start out with until I know this is what I want to get into.

The Pedersoli would be of higher quality compared to a Traditions, generally speaking. Never heard of PF.

I never understand folks who want to get into black powder arms and then use fake black powder.

There's no substitute for the flash, boom, smoke and smell of genuine BP, especially Goex.

For plinking .45 or .50 caliber will be plenty. The recoil from a .45 will be quite a bit less than a .50 or .54. If set up right, the priming powder and main charge can both use 3Fg powder.

It's rare that a brick and mortar store nearby you will have the components you need to shoot these things, most of us buy our supplies online and make our own stuff.

Check out: Track of the Wolf, Possible Shop, October Country, Dixie Gun Works, Jedediah Starr Trading, etc.

If nobody has real BP nearby, but it online. You can get 3lbs of genuine BP from Graf's & Sons for nearly the same as store bought fake garbage.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I would recommend not starting on a flintlock. The management of the flint is an art unto itself, and the low-end guns have locks that won't work that well. A novice is much better off with percussion.

 

[TruthTellers]

As a fairly new bp shooter, the most common thing I read is that substitutes, except for maybe Triple 7, are not highly regarded. From my shooting, substitutes are no less corrosive than real black powder. I was looking for a powder that didn't require cleaning that same day, but it seems that's there is no way around it. If you want a powder that requires less maintenance, you're SOL.

As for power and accuracy, by all accounts I've read, the substitutes have higher velocities, yet bp has better groupings.

And then there's this strange powder called Swiss that, legend says, has the accuracy of black powder with the higher velocities of a substitute. Of course, these are just tall tales as I've never seen such a powder called Swiss on sale at any gun store I've been to.

For flintlock pistols, I would follow others advice here and stick to original bp. That's what they were using back in the day. For percussion, substitutes are fine as they've been proven reliable over many years.

As for the 2F or 3F debate, my rule is if it's a pistol, use 3F, if it's a long gun over .45, use 2F. I use this rule because I'm not big into bp long guns and I don't want to be inundated with a ton of different powders, grain sizes, etc. Honestly, there's nothing wrong with just using 3F for everything and trying out the different powder choices in 3F to see which gives you the best performance. I'd imagine that if you found the Fountain of Youth, there would be a container of that mythical 3F Swiss powder and it would give you sub MOA groups at 100 yards.

As for books, I've been looking up on amazon for some to give to a friend to try and get him into black powder shooting. Here's what I've found lately:

http://www.amazon.com/Percussion-Pi...976&sr=8-4&keywords=black+powder+pistol+books

This is an old, old book, but it's from a well known author:
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Powder-...47208926&sr=8-1&keywords=black+powder+handgun

This one is newest, will have the most up to date info possible:
http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Mode...6&sr=8-1&keywords=modern+percussion+revolvers

 

[TruthTellers]

I would recommend not starting on a flintlock. The management of the flint is an art unto itself, and the low-end guns have locks that won't work that well. A novice is much better off with percussion.

Not to mention shooting one accurately is an entirely different art to master.

 

[Center fire]

So far I haven't found a shop locally that carries anything BP except one and they are asking above retail as they only order as requested. As someone mentioned it seems like online is the way to go, but to ship BP they have to charge a $28 hazard fee. Are there exceptions to this? I've found online 1 lb cans of BP for under $20, but to pay $28 for special handle is a bit of a killjoy.

I kind of understand someone starting off in BP to go percussion. I'm okay with that. Seems most models I've looked at have both options.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Swiss Black Powder is made with a superior charcoal than more common powders such as Goex. Swiss uses Buckthorne Alder charcoal, Goex does not. Because of the superior charcoal, Swiss makes less smoke and leaves less fouling in the bore than Goex. BPCR (Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) competitors love Swiss.

You can buy Swiss at most of the Black Powder wholesalers. Yes, it is more expensive.

http://mainepowderhouse.com/category/black-powder/

I don't shoot many muzzle loaders any more, but I shoot a lot of Black Powder in cartridges; revolvers, rifles, and shotguns.

I used to use the old rule of thumb that 45 caliber was the dividing line between using FFg or FFFg, and loaded 12 gauge with FFg and 45 Colt and 44-40 with FFFg. I stopped inventorying two different granulations a long time ago. Today I shoot FFg in everything; 12 Gauge, 45-70, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40. If I was loading 38 Special with Black Powder I would use FFg too. I usually buy Schuetzen. It is roughly the same price as Goex, but it uses a better grade of charcoal and produces a bit less smoke and fouling. If you buy the Graf brand of powder, it is Schuetzen in a bottle labeled Graf.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501

Generally speaking, you will get between 60 - 100 fps more velocity, all other things being equal, with FFFg vs FFg.

FFFFg is for the pans of Flintlocks, nothing else.

 

[ROAshooter]

"From my shooting, substitutes are no less corrosive than real black powder. I was looking for a powder that didn't require cleaning that same day, but it seems that's there is no way around it. If you want a powder that requires less maintenance, you're SOL."

FYI...black powder or the substitutes...are NOT corrosive.....

the residue...from firing bp/syns..is hygroscopic......that is what creates corrosion...

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Shoot, I seldom clean my guns that have been shot with Black Powder the same day.

When I get home from a Cowboy match, after driving a couple of hours, I am too tired to clean a rifle, shotgun, and two revolvers. I try to get it done within a week, but don't always get around to it.

Shooting real Black Powder is much less corrosive than most people think. It was the old corrosive primers, coupled with Black Powder fouling that caused most of the corrosion. We don't use corrosive primers anymore, and as a result the fouling left behind by Black Powder is much less corrosive than it used to be.

When I do get around to cleaning my guns, using my favorite water based BP solvent, the bores are always just as shiny as they were when they were new.

P.S. yes, the fouling is hygroscopic. It will suck moisture out of the air and hold it against the steel, causing corrosion. But here is a little trick I learned a long time ago. Soak the fouling with oil, and it can no longer absorb water. It is like a sponge that is already saturated with water, it can't absorb any more. I have lots of antique revolvers that have old pitted bores. It is just about impossible to get every molecule of fouling out of all the pits. When they are clean enough, I run a patch soaked with Ballistol down the bores and chambers. The Ballistol soaks into any remaining fouling and prevents it from absorbing any water from the air. No corrosion is the result.

 

[Crawdad1]

I've found online 1 lb cans of BP for under $20, but to pay $28 for special handle is a bit if a killjoy.

I see what you mean, California is kind of tough trying to find what you'll need.

 

[TruthTellers]

FFFFg is for the pans of Flintlocks, nothing else.

I disagree. I think the .22 NAA cap and ball revolvers and Uberti/Pietta .31 revolvers can handle 4F powder just fine. I've seen videos of people shooting smokeless in the NAA and Mike Belivue shooting 4F in a 1849 Pocket.

Everybody and the guns walked away unscathed.

 

[swathdiver]

Goex's Olde Eynsford is near as powerful as Swiss and Triple 7.

Yep, there's that phony hazmat fee but it's well worth it compared to the fake substitutes. As mentioned earlier, even with that, the cost difference is negligible.

 

[PapaG]

Ruger used to put in their owner's manual that 4f was fine for the ROA. I tried it and got some amazing velocities with the .457 rb. Since I only had a half pound and it was reserved for my flintlock, it was only an experiment.
On the cleaning issue, back many years ago I had a ROA nickeled, thinking it would be easier to see if it was truly clean. Shooting in a July event in Burlington, IA, (think humid) I drove home to the Peoria area that evening, pulled the Ruger out of the case to clean it and found the beginnings of pitting on the cylinder and back end of the barrel. Might have been a less than exemplary nickel job but the guy (Shockley) had always done great work. After many years working and appraising guns I've found few nickel guns from the old days with much nickel left.
Didn't matter how tired I was after a match, the bore got washed out and the outside at least wiped down.
Our old mantra, excessive as it was, was clean it after you shoot it, do it again in a few days.
Had one old timer tell me he cleaned it every day for a week, every week for a month, and never went a month without taking a good look at it.
Properly cleaned, he was OCD about it.
I'm a little CDO, which is like OCD but in alphabetical order.

 

[4v50 Gary]

For a .54 caliber pistol, I'd use 3F. If I didn't have that, then 2F.