What condition is this?

[Don Galt]

Ok, I'm quite a ways from seriously considering carrying a hand gun (don't even know yet which hand gun I want to buy)... but was thinking about condition of readiness.

I don't like cocked and locked because I'm not yet proficient, and I fear the safety could be knocked off and the trigger pull be too light. But I'm not wanting to debate that... I have a "new" condition of readiness.

Cocked on an empty chamber. The safety is on, the magazine is full, but the hammer is cocked. On one of the handguns I looked at, there was quite a difference between racking the slide and cocking the hammer, and racking the slide when the hammer was already cocked. Also, the safety did not prevent racking the slide. (This was a CZ52)

So, the firearm is relatively safe-- there's the internal safety, the manual safety as well. IF the manual safety is knocked off, AND the trigger is somehow jostled with enough pressure, the hammer will drop on an empty chamber.

That's quite a safe situation, it seems to me.

On the other hand, if you need the firearm, you simply rack the slide and swipe the safety an you're in condition 0.

Racking the slide is very easy when the hammer is already cocked.... so it seems like something I could do rather quickly, and the safety can be disengaged by the firing hand at the same time, or at any point.

I know everyone has their own preferred carry mode, I'm posting this to hear what the proper condition code for it would be (is it really condition three?) And also would like to hear any legal or tactical issues with this mode of carry.

It seems like a good compromise to me.

Don

 

[sm]

First for those that are not familar with conditions:

http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/library/TFL_Primer.htm

CONDITION 1 - Pistol: Full magazine, cartridge in chamber, hammer cocked, safety on. AKA "cocked and locked."

CONDITION 2 - Pistol: Full magazine, cartridge in chamber, hammer down, safety off.

CONDITION 3 - Pistol: Full magazine, chamber empty.

CONDITION 4 - Pistol: Full magazine separate from gun, chamber empty.

Don Galt I hear what you're concerned about, I respectfully disagree with your proposed condition "2.5" . I'm not gonna get into the mechanics of a 1911 style, except to say for CCW one does not need a "light trigger", and never ever a trigger shoe.

I'm going to address the training . Repetition becomes habit-habit becomes faith. This apples to any platform, 1911 or otherwise. Learn it from the get-go. continue to practice and train ...In a real life serious situation this is what you fall back on. Transitioning is hard, hard to break habits ingrained...you want to ingrain from get -go. I don't recommend "un-learning" and then "re-learning". Mr. Murphy may come to vist whilst in transition. He's good about that.

JMHO

 

[durango]

A problem with this, just like the Israeli technique (Condition 3 I think) is that it requires 2 hands to bring the gun into play. It is not inconceivable that you may have to fend off your attacker with your weak hand while you draw with the other. One hand may be injured, etc. If you are cocked and locked you're good to go. With Condition 3, (or 2.5 as you are suggesting) and you have nothing but a small club in your hand with a one hand draw. If you are uncomfortable with Condition 1, as many are, I think you'd be better off with a double action gun.

 

[Betty]

My worst case scenario is a really big scary guy materializing from nowhere and trying to rape me. Raping requires a lot of physical wrangling, and I may not have both my hands free to chamber my pistol. He's grabbed me by the left arm and trying to wrestle me into the bushes. I've got one hand free, and an unchambered autopistol.

I've got an armload of groceries, or I'm holding a baby.

Don,
When you're at home, try carrying your gun unloaded and cocked and locked. (Carry something else loaded as backup in case Mr. Murphy shows up and you have to use it.) Walk around, sit down, adjust your shirt, and do the normal daily things you do. See if the safety disengages. If it doesn't, and it most likely won't, than I think you'll eventually get comfortable enough to carry C&L.

My father worries me because he carries his little Colt Gov't .380 unchambered.
My backup is a Colt Mustang, cocked and locked, and I worry dad.

 

[Preacherman]

Also, see this thread...

 

[Jeff White]

Don,
If a weapon is mechanically sound, it won't just go off, even if you are carrying condition one and the safety gets brushed off. Carry in a holster that covers the trigger guard and nothing is going to get to that trigger and press it.

Why don't you look at a DAO auto or a DA revolver if you are worried? It's important to be comfortable with what you carry.

The fact is, loaded firearms in proper mechanical condition are not booby traps waiting to go off. It takes at least one deliberate action to fire them. Follow the four rules and you'll have no problems.

Jeff

 

[Don Galt]

Thanks for the feedback, and the pointer to that other thread (Which I haven't yet read.)

The thing is, in my life, on zero occasions have I needed a gun. On the other hand, at least once a year, I trip and fall, knock over a glass, make a driving mistake, or do something clutzy. I'm not a clutz, but the ratio of goofs to self defense situations is quite lopsided.

So, I don't want to be less than three deliberate steps away. Trigger pressure, safety are the two in cocked and locked. I want one more. Sounds like the concensus is to have DA (and the handgrip safety on a 1911, is a bonus.)

Thanks for the feedback. I should also probably buy "In gravest extreme" or one of the other books on the subject.

Don

PS-- I'll follow Betty's advice and try wearing it in the house without it loaded. Also I hadn't really been considering the factor of the holster. Though NDs and safeties getting knocked off, seem to happen when holstering.

 

[DragonRider]

Don, I have only been carrying for about 2 years, and I went through the same thing. I just couldnt get used to the idea of carrying with one in the chamber, take the time you need to be conformtable knowing that you are able to carry safely.

I would also stress that your handling of the firearm is as important as well as how you carry it. I've gone through this with both my HK, first carry pistol, and then when I tried carrying a Glock. It will seem natural after awhile to have one in the chamber.

Good Luck

 

[45+]

Don,
So many good comments here. Thinking about a double action handgun vs. a single action given your goals is a reasonable thing to do. While respecting what re1973 had to say about training (get the training whatever you buy) and Murphy, I would suggest that you make "incremental improvements" to your situation. I think that owning a gun is better than not, carrying cond 4 is better than not carrying, carrying cond 3 is better than cond 4, etc. Most times we need a handgun things are going to happen pretty quickly. But each step up in the readiness continuum prepares you for more of the encounters that you might have. Many of us have changed what we carry and how as time has gone by and we have learned new things. That is growth.

CCW is an incredibly personal thing. This holster works for me but it may not work for you. This load works for one, but not for others. Etc., etc., etc. I know I have bought the "ultimate" gun, holster, knife, flashlight, etc. only to find that it was not what I thought because I am too tall, or thick, or...

Betty's suggestion of carrying what you think you might like and see how it works for you is a great one. Shoot the guns you are considering, if possible. Try it in the real world before you spend your money, if possible. But I would encourage you to finish your initial research, purchase a handgun, and begin training. Each step will "incrementally improve" your state of readiness. Then continue to learn and to grow (and change how you do things), and help others with what you have learned.

I almost always like to hear what others have to say. I may not agree, but it gives me a chance to think through the decisions I have made to see if I can learn something new.

Whatever you decide, good packin' to you.

 

[TonyB]

One word....revolver.....
I had a Combat commander w/ an ambi-safety(I'm a lefty)...I used a thumb break holster.....the thumb break consistantly took the safety OFF........I eventually got rid of the gun(for other reasons),but I also cut the thumb break off and had no more problem w/ the safety........that's why I carry a revo........no safety to worry about,no jamming...it's always ready to go,two handed ,one handed upside down..it WILL GO BANG...

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Don:

Go to http://paul.desertskyone.com/gunstuff.html and you will find a link about 2/3s of the way down the page to the instructions for making my holster. It's not difficult to make, and I designed it to be made by anyone, even those with no leatherworking experience or tools.

This holster includes a "button" or leather cam which FORCES the safety on. When properly fitted, you can put this holster on, take an UNLOADED, but cocked and UNlocked M1911, shove it into the holster and when you take it out, the safety will be ON. The safety cannot come off with this holster.

I recommend you practice extensively with an empty gun. REGARDLESS of what you choose, you do NOT have your finger inside the trigger-guard when drawing or re-holstering. The finger enters the trigger-guard ONLY when you are going to shoot. If you have to hold someone at gunpoint, keep the finger OUTSIDE the trigger-guard, and simply close your hand if you have to shoot.

TonyB:

Thumbreaks are notorious for taking safeties off, or otherwise affecting the controls of your gun. They serve no useful purpose and are to be avoided.

Betty:

Your advice is excellent. I strongly recommend carrying empty around the house for newbies. Learn to get comfortable with the gun. Practice accessing it, presenting it, and dry firing. When the time comes to practice those things with live ammo, you'll have all your moves trained in.

Vernon Humphrey
Republican Candidate for Congress
1st District of Arkansas

www.vernonhumphrey.com

 

[TallPine]

Thumbreaks are notorious for taking safeties off, or otherwise affecting the controls of your gun. They serve no useful purpose and are to be avoided.

They work fine with a revolver.

I find keeping my gun from falling out of the holster fairly useful.

 

[GigaBuist]

Another suggestion...

I don't carry (can't yet)... but here's what I found out when carrying around home to get me used to the idea of condition 1.

The unloaded weapon in condition 1 is a good idea, BUT it's got less weight than a loaded pistol. Depending on what you get this may or may not be a large amount. I know my Glock 21 feels a LOT different with 13 rounds in the mag than it does empty.

Load the mag up, place a snap cap in last, and chamber THAT round. This will give you a better idea of what's going to happen to the firearm when you actually carry it around.

Case in point, the first time you loosen your belt to take a leak and forget that you still have to keep your sidearm secure it might drop. If it's empty and lighter it might not pull away. If it's full of rounds it's got more weight and just might tumble out of the holster. If you end up with a nice new dent in the back of your snap cap you'd have had an ND.

Mine rotate differently when I sit down with an empty mag vs. a full mag too. Little things like that that make it more "real" help you understand the situation. At least, that's my opinion.

 

[LawDog]

My brother loaded a Browning Hi-Power chamber with a snap-cap, inserted the magazine, and then put the cocked-and-locked pistol into a pillowcase along with a bunch of towels.

He them put the whole thing into the clothes dryer, on 'Tumble Dry'.

One cycle later, and the safety was still engaged, hammer still back, snap-cap un-snapped.

*shrug*

Laid our fears to rest concerning the safe carry of cocked-and-locked SA pistols.

Noisy as hell, though.

LawDog

 

[Betty]

The advice to carry unloaded was given to me by another THR member (can't remember who) when I complained about my dad not carrying chambered. I told dad about the suggestion and he wouldn't do it. I know we've got stubborn genes in the family, but jeez.

I really freaked him out when I carried a Kahr K40 chambered (no manual safety).

 

[Don Galt]

Thanks for the followups, and the holster instructions!

I can't come up with a logical argument against revolvers, I think its a taste thing for me, but I'm keeping my mind open.

 

[Waitone]

About a year or so ago I went through the same mental gymnastics. The issue was instantly resolved when I viewed a security camera film of a jewelry store robbery.

Perp walks in (untucked shirt) and proceeds to to a display case and view some product. GG walks over and talks to perp. GG has a slide gun small of his back. Perp turn away to head for the door and simultaneously his hand goes to his front and pulls out a handgun and proceeds to turn back around to the GG. GG sees all this happening and draws his slide gun aims it and pulls the trigger . . . . .the safety was on. Perp pumps 7 rounds into the GG while he was putzing around with the safety. He lived but the perp got away.

Lessons I learned?
1>when it happens is happens fast. No time to think.
2>when you carry, practice.

I dropped the idea of a slide gun and went for a 2" snub nose revolver. Served me well. Problem is I can not get used to the trigger. I will change just as soon as I am financially able to do so and will change to a DA/SA slide gun. I still have the inherent safety of a long trigger pull while followup shots are SA where I feel more comfortable.

 

[Abenaki]

I used to worry over the same thing. I think the problem alot of folks have it that hammer in the cocked position sure looks unsafe.

I got over this problem when it dawned on me that, that is the way I carry my deer rifle......one in the chamber and the safty on.

Abenaki

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I had a friend get rea antsy when I carried my Argentine M1927 with the Colt Ace conversion kit squirrel hunting. The cocked-and-locked APPEARANCE scared him -- untill I pointed out that he was carrying his MKII Ruger in exactly the same condition, but just couldn't see the cocked hammer.