What defensive skills do we need to possess?

[1911 guy]

And that is where I maintain my disagreement. There is no "completing the move". If you are a threat to me and I feel the best way to stop you is breaking your arm, I'm going to break your arm and anything else I can get hold of. I'm not going to give you the option of "Sorry mister, I didn't mean it" midway through getting your butt handed to you.

Just as if force were to be applied with a handgun. You do not draw a gun and wave it around threatening to shoot, or "complete the move". You take action when it has become necessary.

Under the law, in all states I am aware of, force is force. Applying force without cause is assault. Applying force with the result of death is homicide. It's up to judge and jury to determine if you were justified in acting. No half measures. If required, take action. If you can bravely run away, do it.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by 1911 guy:

If force isn't a real option because it's either not the best choice or because you're not justified, keep your mitts off other people.

Good thinking.

If you are in a position where force is needed, hurt them.

Not good thinking.

If required, take action. No half measures.

I do not understand your point.

In self defense, one may lawfully use no more force than is reasonably necessary in all parts of a use of force encounter.

Grabbing an arm or pushing someone to the ground may be necessary and justified. But the fact that it is does not give anyone justification to proceed farther beyond that point. That justification would depend entirely upon what is then immediately necessary--not upon what had been justified.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Blue Thunder:

When you get to detailing drills, all drills should be shot cold. No warm up shots. All social encounters will occur when you are cold. Timing of the drill is essential with realistic times to perform the drill(s).

That's a valuable input.

I'll go a step farther. Program the drill so that the trainee well not always automatically expect to be faced with the need to shoot. Make it a surprise by mixing in steps without the need.

 

[old lady new shooter]

A hammer is two shots fired with the same sight picture. Press, let the trigger out to reset and press again. It's very fast and a good close range technique.

Does this mean the shooter immediately starts the new trigger pull even if the gun has not finished recoiling?

 

[CommanderCrusty]

+10 on Situational Awareness as primary.

My suggestion as secondary: Learn to quickly generate the will to Escape at All Costs.

Lots of people, even people who carry guns, might hesitate to use them (I know, I know, not YOU). But a 100% commitment to surviving by getting the heck out of there is easier to muster, and can still be converted to hitting, cutting or shooting as necessary.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I do not understand your point.

In self defense, one may lawfully use no more force than is reasonably necessary in all parts of a use of force encounter.

So you only fire half a shot in self defense?

 

[Sunray]

"...The military breaks everything down..." Yep. The military also teaches the difference between cover and concealment too. And that a handgun is not and never will be a substitute for a rifle. Military preparedness/training isn't the same as a guy roaming around downtown.
"...one doesn't want to have to enter the arena where "wrestling submission holds" are necessary..." Absolutely. And if you ever do, you've made several tactical errors that are going to caused you and your's serious grief.
Henschman's point about physical fitness is extremely valid too. Not just for wrasslin' though. Upper body tone is important for good shooting as well. If you're not reasonable fit, don't get to tangling with the BG's.

 

[Deaf Smith]

What defensive skills do we need to possess?

What defensive scenarios do you expect? One drunken bum? 100 ninjas? Kinda depends, right?

Deaf

 

[old lady new shooter]

What defensive scenarios do you expect? One drunken bum? 100 ninjas? Kinda depends, right?

Deaf

This is an excellent point. While I think there are certain skills in which we have to become proficient, thinking up scenarios and solutions is a great exercise. "Use cases".

 

[1911 guy]

I'm not as tired as I was a few days ago, so I'll respond to Kleanbore. I agree that you react to the situation as it is currently. The same as if you are using a firearm.

If I draw and would-be attacker disengages, I do not fire. If he does not disengage, I fire as needed. I fire center mass, as this produces the most likelihood of him/her ceasing to be a threat to my life or severe harm.

Transpose that to "hands on" altercations. Let's assume some random guy physically assaults me. Just as with a firearm, I use the means most likely to cause him to cease being a threat to me. If he doesn't like getting pummeled and disengages, so be it. He's free to leave as fast as his legs can carry him. But make no mistake, there will be no Marquis of Queensbury Rules. Certainly not from an attacker and you place yourself at severe disadvantage if you attempt to abide by some mythical "code of conduct".

If you are assaulted with means generally considered to be non-lethal, you may, in every jurisdiction I'm aware of, respond with any means generally considered to be also non-lethal. In other words, if you punch me, I cannot shoot, cut, strike with a tire iron, etc. Just as we do not "shoot to kill", but shoot to stop a threat, the same applies to non-lethal means. Use the appropriate means, lethal or non-lethal, to end the threat as quickly as possible.

Fighting isn't boxing. I can box a few rounds. A two minute fight has me gasping for air, desperately in need of a cheeseburger and a nap. If you are ever assaulted by a non-lethal threat, it is is your best interest to end it as quickly as possible. That can mean simply knocking the wind out of someone and running away. But other than going to work, I'm usually with my family and leaving my wife and pre-teen kids there isn't exactly an option. The intent is to prevent them from hurting you further. Reality is that the best way is usually to physically disable them from doing so. Dislocated joints and broken ribs tend to get the point across. Relying on just the physical sensation of being punched isn't going to cut it.

But again, should they disengage, it's over. Just like if you are forced to draw a handgun. The threat is free to stop at any time. You, however, are under to obligation to "just shoot them in the leg" or "just knock them down". Your job is to end the threat.

 

[Chuck R.]

I like the concept.

To get past the justifiable/Suitable "stuff", I'd just add to your "Conditions" that: "Lethal force is justified/required to stop the threat" or something to that effect.

IMHO a drill/skill test can't take the place of scenario based training or a simulation, so don't try to make it.

If not the what "ifs" or "aren'ts" are going to stifle what could be a good thing....

Chuck

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

The military also conducts training on the use of deadly force, and backs that up with additional situational trainjng where upcoming events (deployment, change in security status, etc.) warrant. Most servicemembers have a very clear understanding of the rules of force at any given time as a result. The "enemy" is usually more readily defined and identified.

Training is always ongoing, however. And so it should be with civilians for self-defense.

I will not quantify this, not attempt to do so, to any specific degree. But we, as civilians, should have sufficient jurisdictional training to understand what constitutes deadly force, what the laws actually say about the use of deadly force, and how to safely handle firearms.

Everything else should build upon this through an ongoing training routine, which involves reviewing the laws and practicing with the firearm.

Evennthe most proficient in defensive skills will STILL push for more...there is no theoretical upper limit.

 

[Jeff White]

I'm going to start off by apologizing for not being clear in my opening post.

"...The military breaks everything down..." Yep. The military also teaches the difference between cover and concealment too. And that a handgun is not and never will be a substitute for a rifle. Military preparedness/training isn't the same as a guy roaming around downtown.

I was referring to the concept of managing a training program. The training management system I want to discuss is applicable to every skill you can think of, from playing baseball or golf to driving a motor vehicle or training a rifle squad or howitzer section. This is about breaking the activity that you want to train on and maintain proficiency in down into smaller individual pieces that you train on separately. Once you have mastered the small pieces you start putting them together so you are training on more complex skills.

Since this thread seems to have gone off track due to my unclear opening post, I'm going to close it and start a new thread.