What do i need for beginning reloading?

[GLOOB]

I loaded 100 rounds in 47 minutes the first time out with my Lee Classic Turret. That is nearly 3 times as fast as I could load with my single stage.

Well, there ya go. I can load 100 rds in 35 minutes (at max speed, to be sure) with NOTHING set up in advance. Everything still boxed up and on the shelf, including the dies. From the moment I decide I want to load a pistol caliber - any caliber - I can load up that 100 rds. And that's doing a wimpy, inefficient 100 rd batch from start to finish. For 9mm and 45ACP I often batch size and prime up to 500 cases at a time. I'm sure I could load a good bit faster with a turret and an automatic powder dispenser. I'm just trying to make the point that maybe you weren't loading on your SS in the most efficient manner, and therefore aren't comparing apples to apples.

True, you have to have all your components close at hand. But I don't see that as a downside at all.

Well, to me it means you have to clean up your bench to make space. Then arrange all your stuff out in a certain way. Then you have to reach farther to get each component. And then you have to put it all away when you're done. You need a certain amount of each item, and then when one runs out, you have extras of all the other stuff to put away. With a SS, you grab 2 things at a time. And you go til one runs out.

I have my empty brass on the floor near my left foot next to a box for my loaded rounds.

So you see no disadvantage to grabbing each brass from the floor?

Leftover loose primers? I have never seen one. Once I open a box (of 100) they find homes in the bottoms of cartridge cases before I quit for the day.

Well, with a SS and priming on the ram, by hand, you can easily drop a few more primers to finish your brass. I know you can just wait till you have exactly 100 cases. But that means you have to count them! Tell me that doesn't take time! And if you end up using up all your brass with a few leftover, then you have to put those extra cases away, again. Come on, tell me you don't spend any time organizing all your different caliber brass, esp if you sort by headstamp or x fired.

An automatic powder measure can speed up a single stage just as easily as it can speed up a turret

Well, my point of view is that the measure greatly speeds up the turret for the fact that you can cap that round with a bullet immediately after it's filled. If you use an automatic powder measure with a SS press, you have to take it out and set in on a loading block. Then when you're all done, you put it back in the press. You might think that you're saving a lot of time, because you're doing it while flaring, but you're not. If you set up your press correctly, you can flare 100 cases in 3 minutes if you let them fall in a bin, rather than setting them in a loading block. Then you can actually fill them faster with a dipper than a measure once they're all flared. It's an economy of motion. The brass, powder, and loading block are all right next to each other. You set the filled cases on your loading block as you go, then immediately seat the block with the seating die. With an automatic dispenser, you have to stop when your loading block(s) is(are) filled and change out the die and components for each block.

I believe the one thing that makes the turret press significantly faster than a single stage is that you don't have to insert and extract the cartridge from the shell holder multiple times.

I agree this is one of the two big time savers. But I think the automatic powder measure is right up there as equally important. I just don't imagine it very easy to get a good level scoop with a good eye on it with my left hand, and carrying it up over the top of my press at the same time as pulling a lever with my right hand, then setting the scoop down before being able to pick up and orient the bullet. Maybe I'm underestimating my dexterity and vision.

Second most significant factor is if the turret press has automatic indexing.

In a SS press, you only have to "index" your die one time per batch operation. So it's kinda unfair to call this an "advantage" over a SS press, lol. Manually indexing a turret for each operation of each round is a DISadvantage of a manual turret press. That fact actually makes me disappointed that the Lee Classic Turret has 4 stations. I wish it had 3, so you wouldn't have to manually turn the thing over the fourth die (which I would leave empty).

 

[bubbacrabb]

If you're going to load in any volume just buy a progressive press. Its a hard to do one time investment but its well worth it in the long run

 

[kingmt]

Well, my point of view is that the measure greatly speeds up the turret for the fact that you can cap that round with a bullet immediately after it's filled. If you use an automatic powder measure with a SS press, you have to take it out and set in on a loading block. Then when you're all done, you put it back in the press. You might think that you're saving a lot of time, because you're doing it while flaring, but you're not. If you set up your press correctly, you can flare 100 cases in 3 minutes if you let them fall in a bin, rather than setting them in a loading block. Then you can actually fill them faster with a dipper than a measure once they're all flared. It's an economy of motion. The brass, powder, and loading block are all right next to each other. You set the filled cases on your loading block as you go, then immediately seat the block with the seating die. With an automatic dispenser, you have to stop when your loading block(s) is(are) filled and change out the die and components for each block.

I can't see this. If you flip it in a box you still have to take it out of the box to put in the loading block. Why not just take it from the shell holder & put in the tray? I can see why you would think that because it is faster to get through your flaring but overall your adding more time to the process.

 

[Duckdog]

It is hard to beat an 4 hole Lee classic turret with the new priming system, a set lee dies with the powder through expanding die and a auto disk. Once it's set up, it is almost hard to screw it up.

I don't own a full progressive, so I am sure they are excellent, too. I have an older lee challenger like he has in the photos, and I still use it for szing cast bullets, depreiming brass sometimes. and I will soon use it for gas check cutting when my cutter arrives.

Your not out nothing. Get a set of Lee carbides and you will still be able to use the powder through expanding die with a funnel. I've done it and still do, even on the turrets, on rifle loads.

It sounds like you have a scale, so I would recommend a set of the lee dippers. They'll throw charges not exactly per thier chart, but then you just adjust to find one that is acceptable close. They usually throw a light charge due to different lots of powder, and the fact they will neve throw heavy for safetys' sake.

 

[wolverine_173]

whats the difference between carbide dies and others

 

[James2]

The carbide dies have a carbide insert as the sizing device. Carbide is so hard you don't need to use lube on the casings.

I have some of the old steel dies from years back, and they still work fine, but need lube.

 

[wolverine_173]

Does this part of the press get replace with a part that will hold a 9mm case or is this universal? I notice this part comes with the 9mm die sets

 

[joecil]

No it doesn't get replaced as it is where the shell holder slides in to the press. If you buy Lee dies you usually get a shell holder with the set. Some presses such as the Progress types have a shell plate which is a bit different. Lee sells a set of 11 or individually. https://fsreloading.com/lee-set-of-r-shellhldrs-90197.html

 

[wolverine_173]

so the plate that comes with the dies just slides into that slot

do i need to crimp 9mm?

do i need the three or four die set? does one just include a crimp die and the other does not?

 

[joecil]

The difference between the 3 and 4 die set are the factory crimp die. The bullet seating die can also be setup to crimp or not crimp. I have 4 sets of dies 3 of which are the 4 die set though I've never used the FCD myself I have them for 45 ACP, 9mm, 38/357 but not for my 45 Colt. I have yet to make any 9mm or 45 ACP using them as I have a pretty good supply of factory ammo at this time for both. I'm mostly loading 45 Colt for single action revolvers now so not as critical as an auto loader might be.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Reading (or taking a loading class if there is one available to you) will answer most of your questions, and also answer questions you will not think to ask. It is the questions that we do not think to ask that bring us the most danger.

Wolverine_173, you REALLY need to get (or borrow from your local library) a copy of "The ABC's of Reloading" and read through it. I am told you can get an electronic copy of it for one or two dollars, as well, but I have not verified that report.

Pretty much all regular loading manuals also have descriptions of the loading process in their early chapters. Get a couple. Reading different authors' descriptions will broaden your perspective.

so the plate that comes with the dies just slides into that slot

Exactly right. You can see in your picture a spring that holds it in place, once inserted.

It is called a "shell plate" in a progressive, having several stations for holding cartridge cases, and called a "shell holder" if it holds only one cartridge, as on single stage or turret presses.

do i need to crimp 9mm?

Yes. but TAPER CRIMP for semi-autos. ROLL CRIMPs are for revolvers. Why? Semi-autos headspace on the case mouth, and if you roll it in, it will not hit the little shoulder in the chamber and your headspace will be too great and possibly lead to disaster.

When you read your "ABC's of Reloading", you will become educated on headspace, which I have left undefined to encourage you to read more. This is one of those questions people don't know to ask that I wrote about above.

Crimp (of which there are two general types, roll crimp and taper crimp) performs a vital function. Deadly vital in some cases.

It holds the bullet in the proper position. Both before and during firing.

You don't want your bullet being driven deeper into the case before firing because that will decrease the free volume inside the case and cause pressure upon firing to increase. This increase is not proportional to the volume decrease. It goes up very fast.

You don't want your bullet advancing out of the case because, if the pressure is lower, the burn rate of the powder will get erratic. (Smokeless powder requires a fairly narrow pressure range to burn correctly, lest you get a bullet stuck in your barrel. A barrel obstruction is one of the surest way to destroy a gun, in your hand.) Also, a bullet "jumping crimp" in a revolver will prevent cylinder rotation, jamming up the gun.

The above is for before firing.

During firing, "bullet tension" or "pull" keeps the bullet in place while the powder is ignited and begins to burn. See, a primer alone is generally enough to make a bullet leave the cartridge, but you really want that departure delayed so the powder begins to burn and raise the pressure inside the cartridge to the level where the powder's burn rate is stable. Unstable burn rates destroy accuracy and (occasionally) destroy guns.

do i need the three or four die set? does one just include a crimp die and the other does not?

Either will do.

They both have crimp dies. Both die sets are identical for the first 3 dies and used identically for the first 2 dies.

3-die operation: When you get to the third die, you seat and crimp in the same operation.

4-die operation: The third die seats the bullet and applies no crimp. (You do this by backing the die out far enough that the crimp shoulder does not contact the case. Not very far.)

The fourth die crimps only.

Why separate the operations? Because the dies are easier to adjust (when adjusting a die for dual seat-crimp operation adjusting for crimp alters the seating depth and vice-versa. Also, if you crimp while the bullet is still being seated, the case mouth tends to dig into the sides of the bullet. Neither of these is a major problem, but is convenient if using a 4-hole turret press or a progressive.

The fourth die also performs another operation. Post-sizing. The mouth (bottom) of the die has a carbide sizing ring that will re-size the case to SAAMI specs as it is withdrawn from the die. Some cases (especially those with thick walls or if you are using slightly oversized bullets) get bulged during loading such that you can't chamber them. Post sizing cures that symptom.

Some people complain that it does not cure any PROBLEM, but merely covers it up, encouraging sloppy reloading habits. So the Lee Factory Crimp Die (or "FCD" the name for that 4th die) generates a certain amount of controversy and argument.

Some of those people who dislike the post-sizing function but do like the "cleaner" and more precise results they get with the 4-die set will knock the post-sizing ring out of the Lee FCD.

I hope I haven't overloaded you with too much information. I do want to encourage you to continue asking questions whether you have read manuals in advance or not. But like I wrote earlier, the questions you don't think to ask are the ones most likely to hurt you. We cannot anticipate those for you. You have to study the process from a manual designed to take you through the whole process.

Good luck.

Lost Sheep

 

[Lost Sheep]

Gloob, I have no heartburn over our differences. To me, it seems just a matter of style. You and I differ in style and every other reader of these posts will eventually choose their own.

What (in my opinion) makes these posts worth their bandwidth is to show loaders searching for the style that fits them best (or who seek to evolve their style) that variation is possible, even beneficial.

Your comments about flaring 100 rounds in three minutes has got me thinking. For that, I thank you.

Well, there ya go. I can load 100 rds in 35 minutes (at max speed, to be sure) with NOTHING set up in advance. Everything still boxed up and on the shelf, including the dies. From the moment I decide I want to load a pistol caliber - any caliber - I can load up that 100 rds. And that's doing a wimpy, inefficient 100 rd batch from start to finish. For 9mm and 45ACP I often batch size and prime up to 500 cases at a time. I'm sure I could load a good bit faster with a turret and an automatic powder dispenser. I'm just trying to make the point that maybe you weren't loading on your SS in the most efficient manner, and therefore aren't comparing apples to apples.

Ah, but I was comparing apples to apples. I was comparing my single stage rate to my turret rate.

According to what I have read of others' loading speed, I am the slowest (for pistols) loader I know.

I count the time from empty, tumbled brass with fired primers still in place to start and ending with finished rounds, boxed (old factory boxes of 50) and ready to take to the range.

Well, to me it means you have to clean up your bench to make space.

Hard to factor that in. I clean off my bench, putting up my tools in their storage containers, after every loading session. And then I fold up the bench, too. So, I can't compare with someone who keeps their gear ready to use all the time.

Then arrange all your stuff out in a certain way. Then you have to reach farther to get each component. And then you have to put it all away when you're done. You need a certain amount of each item, and then when one runs out, you have extras of all the other stuff to put away. With a SS, you grab 2 things at a time. And you go til one runs out.

To get finished cartridges, you still have to have grabbed all of everything at least once, no matter which method you use.

So you see no disadvantage to grabbing each brass from the floor?

The reach does add a little time. I thought about putting a small table there to raise them up, but then thought about what would happen if I knocked the bowl of brass off the table (my available table was small) and decided the floor would do. My hand only makes one trip down and up for each cartridge and case swap.

Well, with a SS and priming on the ram, by hand, you can easily drop a few more primers to finish your brass. I know you can just wait till you have exactly 100 cases. But that means you have to count them! Tell me that doesn't take time! And if you end up using up all your brass with a few leftover, then you have to put those extra cases away, again. Come on, tell me you don't spend any time organizing all your different caliber brass, esp if you sort by headstamp or x fired.

Counting my brass takes absolutely no time at all.

I keep my empty brass in plastic coffee cans and have several hundred on hand at all times. I never have all my brass loaded at any given time. (Well, maybe the .454 Casull and .480 Ruger. I don't have too many excess of those.) To load an exact multiple of 100 rounds I just go until the box of primers runs out. If I happen to crush a primer or something, I just wind up with a short box of ammunition.

I used to try to keep track of the history of my pistol brass, recording the loads on a slip of paper inside the ammo box lid, but once I got my boxes of empty brass mixed up and then it seemed pointless, with the medium range loads I run. So now I don't keep separate histories on each batch.

Well, my point of view is that the measure greatly speeds up the turret for the fact that you can cap that round with a bullet immediately after it's filled. If you use an automatic powder measure with a SS press, you have to take it out and set in on a loading block. Then when you're all done, you put it back in the press. You might think that you're saving a lot of time, because you're doing it while flaring, but you're not. If you set up your press correctly, you can flare 100 cases in 3 minutes if you let them fall in a bin, rather than setting them in a loading block. Then you can actually fill them faster with a dipper than a measure once they're all flared. It's an economy of motion. The brass, powder, and loading block are all right next to each other. You set the filled cases on your loading block as you go, then immediately seat the block with the seating die. With an automatic dispenser, you have to stop when your loading block(s) is(are) filled and change out the die and components for each block.

100 cases in 3 minutes? Yeah, that's is doable. I don't think I could do it. I just don't move that fast. I take a much more relaxed pace.

Some people (and I don't fault them for this) try to get the job done like it's a race. I don't. I observe my production rate/time and just use that as a measure of efficiency. If I am relaxed and refreshed at the end of a production run, I am satisfied. If my speed is good, that's just a bonus.

I agree this is one of the two big time savers. But I think the automatic powder measure is right up there as equally important. I just don't imagine it very easy to get a good level scoop with a good eye on it with my left hand, and carrying it up over the top of my press at the same time as pulling a lever with my right hand, then setting the scoop down before being able to pick up and orient the bullet. Maybe I'm underestimating my dexterity and vision.

The automatic powder measure DEFINITELY is a big time-saver.

On the other hand, it is easy to get a good, consistent scoop of powder with a dipper. Of course, I happen to be left-handed and can do it with either hand equally well. You can too, with practice. But I don't try to balance a dipper of powder at the same time as pulling the operating handle. I would spill powder every time, I am sure.

In a SS press, you only have to "index" your die one time per batch operation. So it's kinda unfair to call this an "advantage" over a SS press, lol.

I was comparing manual index turrets to auto-indexing turrets.

Manually indexing a turret for each operation of each round is a DISadvantage of a manual turret press. That fact actually makes me disappointed that the Lee Classic Turret has 4 stations. I wish it had 3, so you wouldn't have to manually turn the thing over the fourth die (which I would leave empty).

Yeah, me too. I called Lee Precision and asked if there was a way to make the 4-station into a 3-station, but they don't make one.

I have been designing a press top end that would bolt onto a Lee Classic Turret base and allow 3, 4, 5 or 6 stations at the will of the operator. A linear turret. Auto-advance is doable but the return to station 1 is problematic.

Lost Sheep

 

[Reconunit8620000]

.45 ACP, .40, 9mm Luger

Hello
I am currently loading .40, 9mm Luger, and .45 ACP. Here are my results thus far. I am currently using a lee loadmaster with the pro auto disk measuring system. I also use a factory crimp die although that is soon to change to a taper die (which many recommend over a factory crimp die). I also only use federal match grade primers because I like them and feel they are very reliable. A vast majority of my cases are cleaned using the Hornady Magnum Sonic Case Cleaner (which I am extremely pleased with and highly recommend) and some older batches using media that was treated. I only use Rainier bullets from Midway USA buying them in bulk with the free shipping. All my loads use Unique powder and I have been pleased outside of the little bit of build up that seems to be consistent with all Unique brand shooters.

The weapons testing these loads are as follows:

----.45 ACP I am using a springfield TRP
----.40 I am using a Glock 23 gen. 3 and a Glock 35 gen. 4 (both my Glocks are using a Bar-Sto barrel 1:16 twist which I love)
----9mm Luger I am using a beretta 9mm military issue (not a Taurus version) and a Browning High Power

All of my weapons are cleaned using bore snakes, rem. oil for exterior rust prevention and Pro-Shot Pro-Gold grease lubricant 10cc syringe (excellent results though it does build up residue which is easy to wipe off). I am also looking into other types of lubrication for the weapons such as M-Pro 7 gun oil and FrogLube CLP. It never hurts to try new things to see what I like. I come from a family completed made up of Marines and they can be a bit narrow minded when it comes to expanding their horizons on various weapon cleaning products.

.45 ACP
My next goal is to get .45 ACP (451 diameter) 200 gr. Rainier LeadSafe plated round nose bullets shooting. I only use federal match grade primers though some call me crazy for using expensive primers for plinking ammo (each to his own I guess). I tried the .71 pro auto disk and the next step which is the .74 pro auto disk. I found both had trouble with the case not always ejecting. I need to figure out if the next setting is good. Many said that the 6.0 gr. of unique powder for a 200 gr. is perfect which means I need to find out which pro auto setting is the equivalent to the 6.0 grains. I hope that is the case. Thus far, here are my results.

.71pro auto disk- not reliable to cycle. It does fire every time but does not cycle. It simply stays in the chamber without even stove piping.
.74pro auto disk- not reliable to cycle. It does fire but cycles about 75% of the time. The case would either stay in the chamber or it would stove pipe. However, it stove piped more often than simply staying in the chamber.

As a side note, I have noticed that this powder does not burn all that clean. Not that it has ever been a problem for my Springfield TRP. On the flip side, it does clean easily and the flakes/residue is easy to wipe off or use a bore snake (2-3 passes).

.40
My next goal is to get the .40 (400 diameter) 155 grain Rainier LeadSafe plated flat nose bullets. I try to find a load that works in all of my .40 caliber handguns since I found that sometimes one load works for one and not the other. I am currently at the .66 pro auto disk and the rounds cycle great with exception to a few though I feel those faults are due more to magazine issues. Even though this load works great, I am wondering if I should be using a lighter load especially since I am simply trying to hit paper most days.

.66pro auto disk- does fire reliably and cycles great even with my heavy bar-sto 1:16 match grade barrels.

As a side note, I have noticed this powder does not burn all that clean. While it fires great, I was worried about the buildup in the barrel. However, after firing over 500 rounds in one day with this using just my Glock .23, all of my concerns instantly vanished. I have found that this load works with both my Glock 23 gen. 3 and my Glock 35 gen. 4.

9mm Luger
My goal to shoot 9mm (355 diameter) Luger using Rainier LeadSafe 115 grain Plated Round Nose. I have been using the .61 and .57 pro auto disk and found that they work although the kick feels more like a .40 would. I am worried they are to heavy of a load and plan on trying a few lighter loads.

.61pro auto disk- shoots fine using both my Browning and Beretta but feels extremely heavy for a 9mm load that you would get from the store.
.57pro auto disk- shoots fine in both my Browning and Beretta but still feels heavy.

As a side note, I am wondering if they are bit heavy on the powder side and I plan on buying a chronograph to test velocity later on.

Help Welcome!!
Please understand that I am new to shooting as well as reloading. I hope this helps but I don’t want people to think my loads work for everyone nor are they the perfect way to do things. Please be careful and think about what you are doing before you do it. I tried to place as detailed of a review as possible and I hope it helped people. I also would like anyones opinion on the material above. I am looking for any kind of ideas and loads that may be better for plinking ammo. Thank you for reading my notes and I look forward to hearing from my fellow reloading community. I hope to update this as soon as I can with the actual grains that each setting of lee pro auto disk equals to.

 

[kingmt]

You should get a scale. Your loads are still to light.

There was a bit to much info there. I can't tell if your asking questions or answering them.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Hello
I am currently loading .40, 9mm Luger, and .45 ACP. Here are my results thus far. I am currently using a lee loadmaster with the pro auto disk measuring system. I also use a factory crimp die although that is soon to change to a taper die (which many recommend over a factory crimp die).

I think you will find that the FCD is a taper crimp die. Lee does taper crimp dies for cartridges typically found in autoloaders and roll crimp dies for cartridges found in revolvers as their default.
[/QUOTE]
I think you will find that the FCD is a taper crimp die. Some people turn the Lee FCD into a crimp-only die by simply knocking out the sizing ring.

You can also use the #3 die to seat and crimp. You can do this in one combined step, or by adjusting the die as separate steps. However, for the $10 a second seat/crimp die costs, that may not be worth it.

Lost Sheep

 

[GLOOB]

I can't see this. If you flip it in a box you still have to take it out of the box to put in the loading block. Why not just take it from the shell holder & put in the tray? I can see why you would think that because it is faster to get through your flaring but overall your adding more time to the process.

No, because setting up your powder measure on top of your SS press takes awhile. Filling it, settling it, and putting it away again. And then you have to take it all down and switch to the seating die for every time your loading blocks are filled, unless you have two SS presses. Using a scoop, you can also improve your economy of motion, cuz you can set your powder up right next to your loading block. So you can actually maybe gain back some of that minimal lost time you spent flaring, even without considering the setup and switching time for the powder measure.

BTW, I'm not flipping the flared case into a box. The shellholder is set to 3 o-clock. So the flared case drops into a bin to the right of the press, automatically, when I put the next case in. It's over twice as fast that way. The press is practically in constant motion, spitting out flared cases. Just take care you don't accidentally flare your finger, cuz it hurts.

 

[Lost Sheep]

I can't see this. If you flip it in a box you still have to take it out of the box to put in the loading block. Why not just take it from the shell holder & put in the tray? I can see why you would think that because it is faster to get through your flaring but overall your adding more time to the process.

No, because setting up your powder measure on top of your SS press takes awhile. Filling it, settling it, and putting it away again. And then you have to take it all down and switch to the seating die for every time your loading blocks are filled, unless you have two SS presses. Using a scoop, you can also improve your economy of motion, cuz you can set it up right next to your loading block. So you can actually maybe gain back some of that lost time you spent flaring, even without considering the setup and switching time for the powder measure.

Unless you have multiple powder measures that you leave set up on the top of a "powder through" die.

So many choices. So little time.

If you are running a batch of 500, the setup time takes less time as a percentage of total time. Of course, your loading blocks do take up a lot of space.

Lost Sheep

 

[GLOOB]

Unless you have multiple powder measures that you leave set up on the top of a "powder through" die.

Of course, your loading blocks do take up a lot of space

If you think 10 loading blocks take up a lot of space, where are you planning to store all those powder measures? I have 8 sets of dies, and for most of my calibers I have 2-3 different loads. That's a lot of powder measures!

If you are running a batch of 500

If you're running a batch of 500+, routinely, I think it's time to upgrade from a SS press!

I agree there are so many choices. But certain combinations of those choices aren't especially practical!

 

[kingmt]

No, because setting up your powder measure on top of your SS press takes awhile. Filling it, settling it, and putting it away again. And then you have to take it all down and switch to the seating die for every time your loading blocks are filled, unless you have two SS presses. Using a scoop, you can also improve your economy of motion, cuz you can set your powder up right next to your loading block. So you can actually maybe gain back some of that minimal lost time you spent flaring, even without considering the setup and switching time for the powder measure.

BTW, I'm not flipping the flared case into a box. The shellholder is set to 3 o-clock. So the flared case drops into a bin to the right of the press, automatically, when I put the next case in. It's over twice as fast that way. The press is practically in constant motion, spitting out flared cases. Just take care you don't accidentally flare your finger, cuz it hurts.

I understood what you were saying.
This is how I do my swageing on top of the press.

It just takes a few seconds to set my measure on top of the PXD. I put the first throw back then check the second. I usually load on the progressive tho. even 10 rounds will get done on the progressive.