What do we think of this man's actions?

[cbrgator]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/07/long-island-man-arrested-for-defending-home-with-ak-47/


Sounds pretty scary but still not sure the man was justified. Thoughts?

 

[hardworker]

4 warning shots is a little excessive. On the other hand, who's to say what would happened if he hadn't fired it. Sounds like the makings of a good court case.

 

[ATBackPackin]

Scary indeed. I however do not believe in warning shots, that is four rounds that he may have needed to use. That being said I certainly do not think that his actions warrant those kind of charges. But hey it is NY!

I also love how CBS has 7 AK-47's in the picture. Nice scare tactic.

 

[Sky]

On His property at night. Many individuals (5+20=25) threatening his wife, kids and wanting to do bodily harm to the resident who fired the shots. Known MS-13 gang area.

Yes he should have waited until they took his gun away from him and either beat him or shot him with his own weapon. Makes getting the wife and kids easier. Stuff like this I don't need to hear or see. I gonna have a heart attack....Give me a break!

 

[cbrgator]

Why did he go back outside?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

if they were what he claims they were my answer is not high road safe. not much scares me ms 13? very much you can't hurt enough of em fast enough to negate the threat i would pack up and move unless i could figure a way to pull off and nuke em from orbit

 

[Rail Driver]

In the interests of keeping my comment "High Road" let's just say that I wouldn't have fired any warning shots. The words "I'm going to kill your babies" would have been the last words that slimy criminal ever uttered. A verbal threat is *legally* considered force where I'm from.

 

[Phil In Idaho]

Had they been in his house saying "I'm gonna Kill your babies" he would have had a better case. Still he saw no weapon. But what about 25 guys against 1. Is there something in the law about the "disparity of force"?

Here is what the Front Sight guy says.

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2008/08/04/a-lesson-in-disparity-of-force/

 

[Ike R]

I wouldn't have fired warning shots and thats for sure, not with even as few as 4 people, known to be in a gang or just in a gang heavy area, comeing into my yard and threatening me. A single man that weights just as much or even less than you can kill you with his bare hands, by strangulation or beating you to death if you aren't trained in H2H combat. Fighting and/or attempting to hold even 2 unarmed men at bay with no firearm of your own is risky, 15 to 25 men? Thats just suicide, and anyone that tried to do so when they had the capability to arm themselves with an AK-47 would be a found to be a fool by anyone with a lick of sense. Unfortunatly we are talking about New York, where the criminals are the ones running the show behind the political titles of Mayor, City Counsel, District DA ....ect.

I wouldn't have gone outside with anything less than my 9 and my AR-15, with 2 full mags for each. I wouldn't have gone outside at all, I would have let them come to me, where there are plenty of new york reloads available.

I hope the NRA or some other anti-violence advocacy group takes up his cause. Now his wife and kids are at home alone, in the same nieghborhood, only daddy is locked up for fulfilling his promise to keep, love, and PROTECT her till death do us part.

 

[Rail Driver]

I wonder if the "authorities" even considered the situation and the safety of this man's family? Signs point to no.

 

[tkopp]

It's New York and an AK47. What do you expect?

He'll win in a trial setting, assuming he can't get it plead down to a misdemeanor with fine and minimal jail time to avoid the life-altering financial burden of a trial. Disparity of force creates the threat of deadly force even if every member had been unarmed.

 

[uspJ]

Sooooo....I guess in NY disparity of force is overlooked?

I have to say the guy made a big mistake going back outside. I don't care if he was armed with a belt fed .50, 20+ potentially armed men your chances of a good outcome are slim. I would have called 911, kept the AK with me till the cops came. If the gang tried to enter I would have started shooting.

I do wonder what transpired that caused the gang to go after the man in the first place? The article is pretty vague on what happened before he grabbed the gun, there could be details that aren't being given that could shed some possible light on why the man was charged.

 

[FirearmsEnthusiast]

Delete

 

[luigi]

I've seen this story around has anyone been able to verify that the "Gang bangers' were actually affiliated w/ MS 13?

 

[martialartsblackbelt]

In the interests of keeping my comment "High Road" let's just say that I wouldn't have fired any warning shots. The words "I'm going to kill your babies" would have been the last words that slimy criminal ever uttered. A verbal threat is *legally* considered force where I'm from.


This... out numbered. it goes beyond name calling at that point, in-fact in my state its making a terroristic threat

 

[FirearmsEnthusiast]

What do you guys mean by "not highroad"?

 

[Mat Pedersen]

The beginning of the encounter is not complete in the report. I would like to know that part of the report. Were there men loitering near or on his property that looked like gang members? It does not say in the report that the men outside his home were affiliated with the gang, but based on the numbers they were putting out such as; "20 other guys come rushing around the corner," then I would assume so (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/07/long-island-man-arrested-for-defending-home-with-ak-47).

I personally would not have confronted them on my lawn. No laws protect the property owner until you are in your own home and being threatened. The warning shots were a bad decision not only because he needed the ammo but if he lives in city limits he is breaking a city ordinance which is a felony (essentially what he is being charged with) even if he thought he was protecting his home. He needed to tell them to leave his property and the cops are on their way from inside his home. If said gang members then started making threats and tried to gain entry to his home then he has the right to shoot to kill once they were indoors. Also if they gained entry and he only wounded them the offender could legally sue the property owner for using excessive force. It has happened.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Why did he go back outside? As bad as the situation was, deliberately going out into the fight is both tactically stupid, and illegal. I hate to say it, but the charges might be warranted. Going outside to confront the gangs might be the worst decision he has ever made in his entire life.

 

[killchain]

I wouldn't have grabbed an AK-47.

Because I don't own one.

I would have had the family high tail it out and I would have stood my ground, but definitely inside the home.

 

[crossrhodes]

Killchain, I think there was most likely no place for his family to go i.e a large group of men surrounding the apartment/house. MS13 is not a bunch of dummies and I'm sure they had anticipated someone trying to escape during a home invasion. Agree. stay inside and stand your ground.

 

[danprkr]

It mentions in the article that Grier knew that the local police would use 'Shot Spotter' to locate him off the sound of the shots. So the warning shots served 2 purposes, to stop the 20 guys supposedly charging him, and call for help. A somewhat unconventional call for help, but an interesting defense. I personally hope he gets off. Can you imagine if he'd fired those 4 shots into the gang? Imagine the horror of that legal problem.

 

[Deanimator]

Warning shots are a bad idea. Tell them to not come any closer and if they do, they're going to get shot. If they do, shoot whomever is the greatest immediate threat. A 7.62mm bullet through the torso is a highly effective warning.

In the United States, 25 to 1 nails "disparity of force". In New York, who knows? That's why I'll never live there.

 

[Bubba613]

There were two issues to me: Location and weapon.
LI NY is not known as a friend of the common man. Police can't arrest criminals so they arrest honest citizens instead. In most states normal people live in, this would go almost unreported, except for pictures of the cops shaking the homeowner's hand.
Second, if you defend your home it better be court defensible. An AK, while kewl and all, screams ninja. If he had used a Marlin 30-30 I doubt he would have had quite this much trouble. Plus a 30-30 to the chest is not survivable.
Stupid I know. But that's why we can't let the rest of the US become like Long Island.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Why did he go back outside? As bad as the situation was, deliberately going out into the fight is both tactically stupid, and illegal.

In this case, you appear to be wrong on both accounts. It may not have been tactically stupid at all. In fact, it worked quite well. By not retreating, he kept the individuals from advancing further on his property to make entrry.

As for being illegal, that would appear NOT to be the case under New York Penal Code 35.15.

1. Section 35.15 outlines the circumstances under which the use of physical force in defense of a person is justified. Subdivision (1) of that section provides, in part: "A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person." (See also, Penal Law § 35.05[2] and § 35.10[6].)
Subdivision (1) provides a limitation upon the foregoing where the force used is deadly. A person may only use such force upon another in certain specified situations, including where:
"(a) He reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force * * * or
"(b) He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible sodomy or robbery".

 

[mbt2001]

I don't have a problem with it.

I am sure that some DA will do his best to make him look bloodthirsty because of his choice of weapons, but I don't think most Americans don't buy this kind of argument. The economy is in the toilet and people are afraid.