What do you know about...

[Flashpoint]

Damascus steel ?

How does it hold a edge, is it really any good, why do you not see more knife makers using it? (and anything else that I might not have asked about the steel)

Also what can you tell me about Bear MGC knives?

 

[RyanM]

No offense (really!), but you might as well be asking "how good is stainless steel." The quality of a damascus knife depends entirely on the quality of the individual steels which went into it, the quality of the craftsmanship, and the quality of the heat-treat.

In general, damascus will perform very similarly to the two (or sometimes more) steels which went into it, since the forging process homogenizes the carbon content. Like if you use equal amounts of 1084 and... some kinda high-nickel alloy with .5% carbon, the resulting blade would be about .67% carbon all the way through, but with varying nickel content (which is what creates the pattern when the blade is etched, I believe).

As for Bear knives, from what I've heard, they're kinda hit-or-miss. Some damascus blades hold up fine, while others start to look like an old, dog-eared book after a couple cuts.

 

[Flashpoint]

So just saying that a blade is made of Damascus steel doesn't mean diddley if you don't reveal what steel went into it. I thought that it was always made for the same mixture, and that the folding of the steel had something to do with it's quality outside of it just being mixed well. So unless your a metalergist your better off sticking with something simple.

 

[RyanM]

Yep, "Damascus" steel can be made of any combination alloys, but is typically a standard high-carbon steel combined with a high-nickel alloy.

Basically Damascus just looks pretty, and makes a decent enough knife when done right. But there's more that can go wrong, and Damascus steel is inherently no better than its component steels. Personally, I would avoid a knife made of "just Damascus" the same way I avoid the ones made out of "surgical stainless" and "rostfrei."

You don't really need to be a metallurgist, though, to pick out a good knife. My experience has been that craftsmanship and heat-treat quality matter a lot more than the type of steel. So if you're buying from a reputable manufacturer or custom maker, you can usually be sure you're getting a good knife, whether it be made of super-advanced CPM stuff, or old car springs from a junkyard.

 

[Flashpoint]

I understand that you don't have to be into metallurgy to pick out a good knife, I was just saying it would be a great help if you were picking out some Damascus steel.

On the other hand it seem like one would have to do some pretty extensive study to understand the pros and cons of all the different steels that are being used to make knives. Like Cold Steels 440A Sub Zero Quench Stainless, how is it any better than regular room temp 440A-or even 440HC, 440J, ATS-34/54, AUS6/8/10, VG10...?

It can be kind of confusing when your looking for certain properties in a blade.

I do know this, I don't care much for ATS-34, it seems to want to rust too easy, but then again it could have just been the beadblasting.

 

[RyanM]

Ah, sorry. I probably read into "better off sticking to something simple" too much. Well, the best way of figuring out what steels do what is to look up what's in them, and look up what all that junk does. I often find myself consulting this table: http://www.primosknives.com/articles/alloys.htm

Though while doing a search, I turned up: http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2004/Bain.Alloying/ecbain.html

Looks like an excellent read, but it's too latearly in the morninight to do any reading now.

I also seem to remember seeing a chart once that listed the main types of steel, and the advantages and disadvantages of each. Can't find it though.

 

[Joe Demko]

W/O getting into the metalurgical aspects of the discussion, if you want a good quality damascus knife, buy one from AG Russell. He doesn't carry junk.

 

[Sunray]

'Damascus steel' is not a type of steel per se. It's more of a definition of how the blade was made. 'Damascus' is strips of different hardness steels hammered welded together into one blank. When it's done right, the edge is of the hardest steel in the mix so it can be sharpened. The softer steels give the blade its toughness. Hard steels tend to be brittle. It's made by hand and takes a fair bit of time to do. So that's why you don't see it everywhere and why damascus knives tend to be more expensive.

 

[FunGunner]

Damascus steel (wootz steel really), unless made in Damascus, is called pattern-welded steel. True wootz steel blades haven't been made for a very, very, long time and the process wasn't copied or passed down to anyone living thus far. There have been many attempts to reproduce wootz steel, but what happens that a better steel is produced in most cases. While wootz steel was a great accomplishment during it's time, many high-grade mono steels produced today with proper heat-treating are far superior.

But I'm still a sucker for a nice ladder pattern blade.

Kevin Cashen make some of the best, real works of art.

 

[FunGunner]

Eye candy

 

[OrvilleYertleson]

My (unqualified) opinion is that most damascus is around these days for show rather than functional ability. Originally damascus was made because the folding helped remove impurities from the steel and improve it's overall strength/flexibility. I have been told that damascus was the best thing going several hundred years ago, but has been surpassed by modern high quality steels.

It is still really neat though

 

[Flashpoint]

FunGunner

Eye candy indeed.

 

[Gordy Wesen]

I have about 10 years experience using Damascus for my work knives. I went that route because I had designed my own knife (article published in Knives Ilustrated) and the best knifemaker for the job recommended it. It's not perfect but its good enough. I've been through many variations and heat treats and have now waited almost 4 years for a another Smith to knock out my next batch. They will be 52100.
The whole thread can be boiled down to the remark of an almost 90 year old knifemaker when we discussed my Damascus. "When it comes to Damascus, which steel are you heat treating?"

 

[Don Gwinn]

Fungunner, actually Al Pendray figured out how to make it some time ago, and it's been made by (relatively) many more smiths since then. You can buy billets or blades online, but it's spendy.

 

[hso]

http://spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/steel.php + http://spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/index.php?item=3

Damascus (pattern welded steel), whether hand, machine, or powder made, is pretty, but there are scores of modern steels that perform in blades better.

When I buy pattern welded steel knives I prefer to get knives from a maker that also makes the steel, but that doesn't mean that I don't buy as many from folks that don't make their own steel. There's an artestry in and of itself to making "damascus" and a maker that selects a beautiful steel to work with because they can't make that pattern themselves is still crafting a thing of beauty in the end.

 

[FunGunner]

"Al Pendray"

Yep that's the guy, I was trying to remember, my post never said that it couldn't be done but implied that it's hard to do. If I remember correctly that Mr. Pendray didn't have a easy time reproducing wootz steel, because the limited samples he had to compair his work with.

Thanks Don

There is a ton of info over on Swordforum.com on pattern welded blades and wootz steel, just do a search on past posts

 

[redneck]

You need to look at more than steel and you need to make a distinction between custom and production.
I'd never buy a knife made with "damascus" of unknown ingredients. A good smith, or whoever produced the damascus will tell you what went into it.
From there, damascus is just like any other steel. It depends on what your using it for as to whether its good, better, the best etc. Production companies generally outsource for damascus. Companies like Thunderforge make top quality damascus and its cheaper to buy from them than to do the research and make it yourself. If a production company doesn't tell you where it got its damascus, or whats in it, you should question buying the knife.
Custom makers generally make their own. Its part of the knife. Quality will vary, but generally if you are dealing with a reputable smith your going to get something special. They wouldn't put all the work into making it if it didn't make a good knife.

One thing damascus has going for it is that it can give you a very aggressive cutting edge. The different layers coming together at the edge make it toothy, good damascus will cut like crazy and for a long time. It also looks really cool (this is an etched finish though, with hard use it may wear off and look like normal steel over time)

There's so much more to a knife than the steel though. You can use the most expensive steel in the world and it won't be worth anything if the heat treat isn't any good. Thats where you need to get your knife from a good company or a good knifemaker. And beyond the heat treat is the design of the knife.
With poor edge geometry a knife just won't cut well. If you find a good knifemaker who makes their own damascus, chances are they know their stuff. They'll have done the time to figure out the best combination of steel, heat treat, and design to get the most out of the knife.
You can't just read the materials list. You should also look at who put it together, and all the other variables like the type of grind, how the edge is sharpened, handle shape, blade shape etc. to make sure it will perform the way you want it too.