What do you Think? Norinco USA maybe on the WAY!

[HJ857]

I have a couple things that may only be tangentially related to the discussion.

Within the past 6-12 months some magazine (Time maybe) did an article on the growing Chinese yuppie class, which is similar to the Japanese youth that have their own brand of western tendencies. Basically these groups are becoming more western, but also have a "don't ask, don't tell" ethic in that they do not question their governments if the standard of living stays untouched. It seems to me that this is nearly exactly like the US middle class' view of life. But the bottom line is that growing wealth in the east will have the effect of westernizing at least part of the population.

Coupled with that is that Free Trade Theory believes that as two countries become more intertwined with trade, they become less and less likely to go to war with each other because the economic downside becomes too great.

So I think that while it seems like the US is undermine itself economically, the free trade practices now in play will also work to undermine Communist policy.

This is a pretty interesting discussion since it's now election time in the US. If you're Republican and against free trade, you better look real carefully at your candidate's trade policy positions.

 

[MCgunner]

So I think that while it seems like the US is undermine itself economically, the free trade practices now in play will also work to undermine Communist policy.

I'm a free trade libertarian and I approve this message.

 

[robertbank]

plumberroy

Yes actual wage costs tend not to be the whole issue. The Govenor of Michagan was on T.V. promoting the Democrats and their plans for revising Health care in the US. One point he made was the high cost of Health Insurance in the US for US based companies vs the National Health Care here in Canada. Your point is well taken. Too, companies have moved offshore to avoid environmental issues at home. Too bad our respective governments don't extend our environmental laws to include offshore extensions of Canadian/American companies. Might bring more industry home than we might want to admit to.

Given equal value and price I buy Canadian/American (Our economies have been fully integrated for some time so there is for me no difference between the two sources) first. Beyond that I look for quality vs value to me vs price. I suspect most consumers do the same balancing act. Unlike governments deficit spending by familes is not a long term proposition.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Lucky]

In your example Joe may not got the girl either if he blows his wad on the car.

Lol, "but I'm afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I'm afraid I have something of a mess on my hands."

 

[Rachen]

I am sorry to butt in, but it seems like a lot of people here are mistaken that China would invade the US. Let me get this straight, we Chinese NEVER INVADE ANYBODY. IN our 5,000 year history, we never waged aggression against ANYONE! We got f*** by English, French, Japs, etc, we smashed many of them, thats why we are powerful, because we never threaten anyone, everybody respects us. Okay? I don't like how people still have this "yellow peril" attitude. GROW UP. CUT IT OUT!

 

[Lucky]

If you don't count Korea, Vietnam, India, Russia, Tibet. You're pretty much 100% safe,guaranteed, so long as you don't border them.

Not counting that for those 5000 years they were more like several independent countries, instead of one big one. That's why their are such regional differences to the point where they don't speak the same languages. Wonder how they all turned into one country...?

 

[Norton]

I am sorry to butt in, but it seems like a lot of people here are mistaken that China would invade the US. Let me get this straight, we Chinese NEVER INVADE ANYBODY. IN our 5,000 year history, we never waged aggression against ANYONE! We got f*** by English, French, Japs, etc, we smashed many of them, thats why we are powerful, because we never threaten anyone, everybody respects us. Okay? I don't like how people still have this "yellow peril" attitude. GROW UP. CUT IT OUT!

Tell me again about the Korean War? Those weren't hoards of Eskimos coming wave after wave at our troops after all.

 

[jpk1md]

So if you support socialist economy and oppose a free market economy, how are you not the same communist you proposed to be the enemy?

How is it wrong for an individual to spend their own money on whatever product they want from whatever place, that they feels gives them the best value?

And just when did World Domination, military global supremacy as you succinctly put it, become something 'good guys' like America do, and that citizens like you take for granted? I've heard of Monroe doctrine and White Man's Burden, but never seen someone casually slip the policy of 'World Domination' so slightly into everyday conversation. Interesting.

If you can prove China is a military threat to America, then do so. Otherwise you are simply playing 'Red Dawn' in your mind with a slightly different cast.

I don't think you quite understand the concept of TRADE. You see, Jimmy has a lot of bananas, and Jilly has a lot of apples. Jimmy eats so many bananas he is sick of them, and likewise Jilly and apples. Then just as Jimmy is about to light his pile of bananas on fire so he doesn't have to look at them again, he talks to Jilly and learns that she would pay a high price for a banana, and likewise Jimmy for an apple. Jimmy now gets something he places a HIGH VALUE ON, in exchange for something he placed a LOW VALUE ON. And likewise for Jilly.

So by magic, suddenly VALUE has been created where none existed before. Simply by TRADE.

What is absolutely stunning is the general failure of people in this thread to recognize how sending our money to China undermines the US Economy and Consumer LONG TERM!

Lets all sit around, hold hands and sing kum bah yay....get real.....there's an economic war going on with China. Wake the F Up!

They hold enough US $$ such that if they were to dump them on the market quickly the value of the dollar would crash like seagull that just ate a few pepto bismol tablets......

 

[MCgunner]

So, we should fear the Mongels more just on past history? I don't think so. There's a first for everything. All that said, I think Taiwan is next. Probably why the Wangs built the PVC plant here I used to work for and bought out many other plants around the US, a haven to escape to when the inevitable happens. At least they have water to cross and the US has a powerful navy in the Pacific, though I don't know that 1) we'll be willing to use it or 2) it'll be enough. But, I see Taiwan as the target, not the USA. Even with all their population, a military assault on the US would be suicide. Just ask the Japanese about it, especially around August 6th.

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

If you want to give your money to the Communist Chinese then good for you, but I don't want any of their rifles. This is one of those increasingly rare cases involving Chinese goods where you DO have a viable alternative.

I don't want to hear about how there are no other options in the market and you have to buy Chinese out of necessity. Clearly there are U.S. made AK type weapons that can be bought where our money isn't being sent back to mainland China. Ditto for M14 type weapons.

But then again, look at the posts we see here on a regular basis regarding "where can I get X type of gun the cheapest?" Unfortunately, there will be plenty of Americans that will snap up these rifles because they don't don't give a damn about the fact that our country is exporting its industrial base, and our ability to make war materials.
__________________
Live in Maryland? Visit MdShooters.com and get involved in fighting for your 2nd Amendment rights!

Give me a ****ing brake.


Look on the bright side, maybe you'll colapse in a wal-mart one day from the chicom ammo lodged in your chest from your time in the war in Korea and no-one will help you due to those imposing ideals on others about their buying habbits being in their lifes best intrest...

So ummmm.......why are we going to war against China?

Ditto.

 

[Ash]

Anybody tired of the price of oil? Wonder why oil is so expensive? India and China now have the kind of wealth to buy cars. I like free trade (of course, it does need to be free, but I digress) but we can cut our nose off despite our face, too.

Ash

 

[robertbank]

Ash

Another reason why the price of oil is so high as expressed in US dollars as the Federal Gov't has been running huge deficits (the US is the largest debtor country in the world and owes more debt that the entire soverign debt of the rest of the world). When you do that your currency ultimately will lose value and it has.

As a Canadian I watched our dollar fall to a low of 62 cents US from our deficit spending during the 70's. 20 years of surpluses and our dollar is back to or near par with the US dollar. Getting our government deficits back to surplus was achieved by cutting government services and higher taxes.

Surprised this is not an issue in the Presidential race. The Federal budget deficits will only fall if a) Tax revenues go up or b) Government spending falls. The first is unlikely in a recession environment and raising taxes is a tough sell politicaly and government spending reduction in the face of the Iraq war isn't likely to happen. I guess it all works if you continue to pretend all is great. Hope the dream doesn't turn into a nightmare.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Limeyfellow]

China and India combine use a fraction of the oil the US does. What really runs up the price is oil traders selling between themselves to run up the price a dozen or so times before it is released for sale on the open market. I guess if they wrote a rule that they had to go pick up the oil in person and store it, that would do the most to lower the price of oil.

We just can't blame all our own problems in the Chinese and Indians for bad choices being made over the past couple of centuries.

 

[Hoppy590]

Oh I don't don't know, maybe for silly reasons like the fact that 500 Yankee dollars goes to arm a country that is our enemy?

Then again, maybe I'm just an old fashioned kind of guy that isn't so willing to go quietly when accepting our future role as subservient slaves to our economic and military masters in China, just because I can get a good deal on some cheap crap. Maybe I need to tune out what is going on, watch more American Idol and just go peacefully like the rest of the sheep.

yup, thats it. im a sheep. i mean only sheep want to eat and provide for family instead of blowing money on over priced M1a's

when springfield armory sales suffer, and they drop the price to something more reasonable. i will spend the extra $ out of principle. untill then. im not gunna buy a overpriced rifle and skimp out on food and other necessities

 

[Lucky]

What is absolutely stunning is the general failure of people in this thread to recognize how sending our money to China undermines the US Economy and Consumer LONG TERM!

Lets all sit around, hold hands and sing kum bah yay....get real.....there's an economic war going on with China. Wake the F Up!

They hold enough US $$ such that if they were to dump them on the market quickly the value of the dollar would crash like seagull that just ate a few pepto bismol tablets......

Ok you have a point. What that is is that China holds a large amount of US debt through a trade imbalance. But trust me, you don't want to get into details*. What this means is that China COULD rapidly affect US currency values, if they felt massacistic. Countries don't hold foreign currency reserves to use them as weapons, they hold them because they are stuck with them and for fiscal balance. If China was performing economic warfare with the USA, they would simply counterfeit the money. NORTH KOREA IS PERFORMING ECONOMIC WARFARE ON THE USA. They are the ones producing counterfeit money.

The reason, as Robert has TRIED to explain, that China holds so much money is TO KEEP THE USA SOLVENT. The USA prints bonds, in essence they beg for money for their next fix. Then China buys the bonds, and the USA doesn't have to **** around with their interest rates and thus the economy. In return the USA buys China's products. Money goes to China, and guess what China buys? They buy bonds. China doesn't have to dump any currency, they can simply stop buying the bonds.

There's no economic war with China, businessmen there are working hard and producing goods that people here want to buy. It's NOT WRONG in any way. They have a competitive advantage, and WE ALL BENEFIT from it.


Now for a bit of detail, the US currency is ****ed BECAUSE OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE. Vote for Ron Paul, back the currency with something other than faith, get rid of fractional reserve banking, and you won't be VULNERABLE to what you suspect the Chinese will do to your currency.


And for a bit more detail, the western currency system was engineered by very very powerful and rich men just after WWII in what was called the Breton Woods agreement. This means that these rich men make insane amounts of money because the currency system switches from being backed (by gold) to fiat, so they can play with it and skim small percents off huge huge numbers to make gigantic fortunes. Well, they were already insanely rich when they slipped the Federal Reserve into place, but richer, if possible.

Now I said that's for the western world. In the East, a few years later, they laid out a SEPARATE money system. These involved FIXED currency values, compared to our floating. It's seriously ****ed up, but that's how the world is, it's run by rich bankers so rich that their fortunes are greater than the USA GPD mutipled by 10, and there are invisible lines that demark which country has floating and which a fixed currency.

There's a little more play now, but the principles are still basically there, and that's why the US complains China's currency in undervalued and that's the cause of the trade imbalance. But the truth is EVERY country seeks to undervalue their currency, for that reason. When the

 

[H2O MAN]

you guys are way off topic!

 

[Number 6]

There is a lot of bad information being thrown about in this thread. I would like to add that the argument that economic relations with China will in turn lead to democracy has been made for almost 20 years now. The irony is that in China democracy has not come about in the industrialized cities with a middle class, but in the rural areas where democracy was thought to be least likely to show up.

 

[trbon8r]

Why are you so fixed on this when you fail to acknoweldge the fact the Chinese are lending you the money to fund your military via funding your deficits. Seems to me if they were bent on destroying the US, their largest economic partner by the way they wouldn't lend you the money in the first place.

The Chinese are lending money to the U.S. because they are not yet finished fleecing the Yankee of his last dollar, stealing our last patent, or pilfering our last ounce of intellectual capital. If you think the Chinese are lending us money out of the goodness of their hearts think again. They are doing it to exert more control over U.S. policy. It isn't my fault our government has a spending problem.

If you want to send your money to a country that is trying to undermine us economically then good for you. Whenever I have a choice to not buy Chinese products, I will exercise that right. Come to think of it, the same goes for French products.

 

[Norton]

the USA buys China's products. Money goes to China, and guess what China buys? They buy bonds.

Which means they own us. My point all along.

Where do you think they get the money in the first place? From Americans buying products manufactured in their country, shipped here and undercutting American made products. Every time that we purchase something not made within our country's borders, we are funding another country's economic engine.

Because the US is the largest consumer nation in the world, we will continue to purchase our foreign made products until there is absolutely no manufacturing infrastructure left in this country.

The Chinese will continue to use the US as an ATM until their own consumer economy is self-sufficient and then they will dump us like last week's newspaper.

And yes, you are right....the Fed and the bankers are ultimately responsible for this whole mess.

 

[Lucky]

Norton it's good to be concerned with the very big picture. But if you're worried about concentration of wealth and power, buddy the Chinese aren't nothing. The little things we call 'nation states' are pretty big, but they are still smaller than the wealthiest 'old money' families, who literally own entire currencies, reserves, world bank, etc. They can buy and sell countries. If there was anyone they could sell them to.

The USA, for instance. A lot of money there, right? Well in this century things changed and the government started borrowing the money they spend every year. So each year they borrow money to pay for the previous. Who do you think has enough money to lend for the US freaking government? That's right, there are entities with THAT much power out there.

 

[Ash]

Oil was moving up well before the dollar began to fall. Chinese demand for oil is still a cause for the upward move in prices.

Ash

 

[grendelbane]

Today's China reminds me of the USA about a century ago.

Right down to child labor, tainted goods, and intellectual piracy.

I suspect it is a phase that nations have to pass through before achieving maturity.

I also suspect that I have a lot more in common with a Chinese factory labourer than I do with an American union boss, American "fair trade" advocate, or American Democratic Party candidate.

I own a Chinese knockoff of the old Browning takedown .22, and you have to give them credit, they copy the classics!

 

[Shooter973]

Norinco USA?????????

After nearly having my Butt shot off by Chinese weapons and ammo, I'll never buy a Commie weapon. Or send any of my money knowingly to them either. I guess I just have hard feelings for the last 35+ years.

 

[Prince Yamato]

don't see any where in the definition of friend someone who is trying to poison you, you kids, and dogs

A couple of the heads of the Chinese companies in charge of the tainted goods were executed by the Chinese gov't for failing to implement quality controls... so I highly doubt the Chinese would be out to get us if they executed the people responsible for the tainted goods. Let's see a US company do that next time it's product poisons and kills your family or pet.

I still think it's funny how some of you guys think China is so Godless and communist. Most of the Chinese people I know love to buy things (just like us Americans) AND they're usually intense Protestants. Yah, I'm really worried about Hu Jin Tao... please... You're cold war attitudes is why we're paying out the nose for guns and our more sensible Canadian friends can get new Norinco handguns which are (usually) as good or better than their American equivalent and a couple hundred dollars cheaper.

Today's China reminds me of the USA about a century ago.

I felt this way too. The People's Republic actually feels very "American" to me.

 

[Ash]

The Chinese executed those execs, both drug and manufacturing, because China lost face in the international community.

Ash