I started the thread about what's the difference in BPs. Lots of great info. But I still don't see the equation of definition of the differences to the performance. I come from a long history of smokeless reloading where nuance is highly regulated. Now with my own creations of BP I want to formulate some style of empiricism. I was reading about how they used to test BP prior to purchase. Basicly an under powered mortar. A static amount of powder had to propel what looked like 12" cannon ball so many feet in order to be viable for purchase. I'm looking for a device that "we" could agree would afford the same variables except the powder being used. Or said differently, A simple device that any of us could make or have to determine the strength of the BP where the only variable would be the BP being used. Or maybe I've got too much time on my hands. [Sorry that there is no prize if you have the winning idea.]
What do you think of this idea?
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kBob
Member
You know those ring the bell doo hickies at carnivals and the county fair where you hit a seesaw with a mallet and weight is shot up a rail and everyone gets to laugh at where it got to highest when you failed to ring the bell?
A small mortar with a captive weight on such a device is exactly what was used by cannoneers 400 or so years ago to test powder.
There is also a little pistol with a rachetting cover on a scale. used to test powder. These are still available. Or were when I last looked for one. Saw a You tube about one recently.....yep that Hungarian guy I have been raving about of late "capandball"
The Spanish gunners of the 1600s used a specific bucket for measuring loose powder with. They carried a gunners dagger which was a dirk or bodkin typically triangular blade that was marked along the blade. Rather than graduations on the bucket one stuck the point of the blade in the powder and read the graduations on the blade.
Based on how high that puck went on the ring the bell doo-hickie the gunner guesstimated what measure of powder he would need for a given gun and ball.
See why they called gunnery an art in those days?
-kBob
A small mortar with a captive weight on such a device is exactly what was used by cannoneers 400 or so years ago to test powder.
There is also a little pistol with a rachetting cover on a scale. used to test powder. These are still available. Or were when I last looked for one. Saw a You tube about one recently.....yep that Hungarian guy I have been raving about of late "capandball"
The Spanish gunners of the 1600s used a specific bucket for measuring loose powder with. They carried a gunners dagger which was a dirk or bodkin typically triangular blade that was marked along the blade. Rather than graduations on the bucket one stuck the point of the blade in the powder and read the graduations on the blade.
Based on how high that puck went on the ring the bell doo-hickie the gunner guesstimated what measure of powder he would need for a given gun and ball.
See why they called gunnery an art in those days?
-kBob
You could also try small charges in a handgun/rifle and compare it to the velocity known powders/granulations give, though 4F may be asking for some problems unless used in very small amounts.
I.e. chronograph 20 grns of 3F, 2F, and 1F using maybe 2 types such as standard Goex and their Olde Eynsford, and then compare the velocity to yours. You'd need to be quite precise in your weights and filler.
I.e. chronograph 20 grns of 3F, 2F, and 1F using maybe 2 types such as standard Goex and their Olde Eynsford, and then compare the velocity to yours. You'd need to be quite precise in your weights and filler.
vagunmonkey
Member
There not inexpensive, but Dixie gun works has them for sale.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=903&osCsid=g3jub8frlapa25gseda8fhfls4
BHP FAN
Member
that pistol type tester the other fellas mentioned is what you're in need of. You were wise to ask these guys, otherwise, you'd be re-inventing the wheel. As was mentioned, they are not cheap, but they're about as simple to use as a tire pressure gage.
WestKentucky
Member
I once saw a show where guys found anvils of similar size and stacked them with the bottom anvil upside down so that the hollow bases formed a cavity. They would fill the cavity with BP and stick a fuse in. They competed on distance that the anvil traveled and height of the arc IIRC. If you hold all other factors equal you could do something similar. At a very steep angle (80-85degrees, nearly vertical) you could have a standard charge with standardized projectile and base, then rate your powder by projectile travel.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vP-X7nLwvVY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vP-X7nLwvVY
EljaySL
Member
I'm with rodwha. I'd probably just chrono some rounds. If you want to test the 4F there are cap and ball revolvers that can use 4F, and it's actually pretty common in the smaller calibers (.31).
One thing you would have to decide on early is if you want to do everything by weight or volume. Which is the most useful comparison? Or do you also want to make up a density chart so you know this one's less powerful by volume not because it's a bad mix as because it's light and fluffy.
One thing you would have to decide on early is if you want to do everything by weight or volume. Which is the most useful comparison? Or do you also want to make up a density chart so you know this one's less powerful by volume not because it's a bad mix as because it's light and fluffy.
Officers'Wife
Member
Perhaps a pendulum like device? A specific weight of powder in a cartridge. When the powder is fired the recoil causes the pendulum to swing setting the marker. Then you have a simple F = M*A set of data to calculate the "strength."
Item last: Would you please cut it out? Every time you come up with one of these questions I'm tempted to clean out my uncle's shop and pick up the study where he left off!
Item last: Would you please cut it out? Every time you come up with one of these questions I'm tempted to clean out my uncle's shop and pick up the study where he left off!
Uh, sort of the right track. I want to be able to create a thread where I can say, "Here is my latest receipt of BP. It bangs a "7" on the Not-a-Rube Goldberg-Rate-Your-BP-machine." I want all of us to have the same tool of parsimony where we can check and compare results. Lets go over to Officers' Wife's Uncle's shop and help clean a while and see what develops.
Officers'Wife
Member
Rather than "reinvent the wheel" you might consider the simple ballistic pendulum as your starting point.
Ballistic_pendulum
In my mind instead of measuring the force of a projectile I think I would go with measuring the recoil. This would allow the use of smaller powder samples and less bulky weights. It could be a simple as the firing chamber attached to a free swinging weight that pushes a pointer. The gauging could be a simple grade school plastic protractor.
The firing chamber could be as simple as spent cartridge with the powder set off with a 3/32 cannon fuse and a paper wad.
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