What does a $30,000 shotgun bring to the table?

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rkh

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Let me start by saying that I'm one of those unwashed proles who shoots clays with an 870. Recently I've been looking at upgrading to an O/U to put an end to the dirty looks. I am dumbfounded, however, at how much some manufacturers are asking for their high-end models.

Can a shotgun really be worth as much as nice new BMW? What does that extra $29,500 really get you, other than an attractive looking gun? Are they really better (as in, more likely to put shot on target) than their less expensive counterparts? At what point does the law of diminishing returns take effect?

Confused. :confused:
 
Realistically, you can't get a good O/U range gun for under a grand, new. TAANSTAFL.

However, if you hit all the birds with a $1500 gun, you won't hit any more with a $30,000 gun.

Real high-end competition guns are hand made, and often hand-fitted to the shooter. That's what you pay for: they're made for you, they fit well, they last forever, and they are made with features like internal metal shapes that couldn't be included in a production model.

Real high-end fancy-looking guns are often hand-made, but you pay a lot for the art of it. They may not work well for trap, for you, but they're beautiful. They're great guns. But they might offer something different from what you want in a trap gun.

For American trap, you can do quite well with a BT-99. Won't work for doubles, though.

The 870 Classic Trap is an effective trap gun, pretty, and works great if you like the 870 but just want something with a trap stock and trap barrel, without breaking the bank.

For a thorough discussion of high-end shotguns: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=239700
 
Since you brought up the car analogy, take it to it's logical conclusion. A $300 used chrylser will get you from point a to point b. What you are paying for is extra features that you would like to have, but don't necessarily need.
 
No $300 car I've ever seen has ever run well. The same cannot be said for my 870. :neener:
 
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In 10 years that $30,000.00 BMW might be worth $7,000.00. That $30,000.00 gun, with care, will be worth more than you paid for it. Of course, so will your 870.
 
The guns get better up until around $10,000, better being receivers and barrels that can shoot 100,000 rds. between major servicings, often times have adjustable points of impacts, very crisp and consistant trigger pulls, reliable, beautiful wood, etc. These include Krieghoffs, Kolars, Perazzi's, Blasers, etc. Much above $10,000 you're paying for engraving and purdy wood. The engineering doesn't improve.
I shoot a Citori XT costing $1,800. If you compete (I don't, I just shoot a little league skeet), and somewhat make a living from clay games, a $10,000 Krieghoff would make sense, or if you have the disposable income and can appreciate wonderful craftsmanship.
 
I find this funny.

I go clay shooting with my 30 year old Winchester 1400 autoloader and I can out-shoot just about everyone I've ever encountered, regardless of how much their ridiculously fancy shotguns cost.

For me, the only real benefit that a nice over-under could provide to me is less weight. And thats about it.
 
OK, a little background here...

I've been seriously into shotguns for probably 7 years. Started with a Winchester Model 12 which became mine when my dad passed away. I've picked up and worked my way through a variety of pumps, autoloaders and eventually an O/U.

The O/U is a Browning 425. Nice gun, solidly built and it has probably upwards of 40K shells through it. It's been worked on by professional smiths and by yours truly to make it fit perfectly and shoot exactly how I want. About 1 1/2 years ago, I started shooting registered sporting clays and that gun has served well as I've moved quickly up the classifications. I've used it to win money, prizes and trophys, and I've even killed a bunch of birds with it.

Eariler this year, I ordered a Kolar. It wasn't $30,000, but it did cost more than my first three cars combined (and one of those was brand new). I've been shooting it for several months now. As it's been hunting season, I haven't shot it as heavily as I will during the clays season, but I've got just around 2K shells through it.

Not long ago, I had the opportunity to shoot an afternoon's worth of sporting clays... using my tried and true 425. I shot three 50 target courses, plus did a little practice on the side... let's call it just shy of a flat. In any event, I found to my surprise that I no longer liked shooting the 425. The new gun just plain feels better. Whether or not that translates into better scores waits to be seen. So far, I don't think I'm experiencing the "dip" I anticipated, but my scores certainly aren't loads better. Then again, there's not a lot of room for improvement. I don't say that to brag, but to explain that it's difficult to gauge progress. I'll have a better idea once the season starts in earnest next spring.

Now, what does the Kolar offer? First and foremost is fit. It's not off the rack, and it's not "tweaked to fit". It's designed to fit from the very start. I was able to play with different barrels and configurations to get the handling I wanted. The balance and feel is just right. My Browning always felt a little blocky and barrel heavy. Even though the Kolar weighs more, it's more neutral handling. My swing seems a little smoother. Additionally, the extra weight sucks up the recoil. In real terms, a 1300fps 1 oz load (Fiocchi Crusher) in the Kolar feels softer than a 1200fps 1 oz load (Fiocchi Multisport) in the 425.

Also, since I like to shoot sub-gauge events, I was able to get a second carrier barrel and a full set of tubes in .410, 28ga and 20ga. Now I can shoot all the sub-gauge events without switching back and forth between guns. While I enjoy hunting with different guns, I prefer to compete with a single platform.

I'll not apologize for the fact that the gun is beautiful. The wood is nicely figured and perfectly crafted. I did opt for additional engraving. Does it enhance the shooting? No. Does it flat out look good? You bet! I didn't get it to show off. I got it because I liked it. That's enough. To assuage any thoughts that I might "baby" it... don't bet on it. The first time I shot it, I ran nearly a flat through it in a rainstorm. In fact, I was shooting it in a rainstorm earlier today. One of the reasons I bought this gun is because it is durable. My plan is to shoot it to pieces and have it rebuilt over and over until I'm the thing that doesn't work any more.

What are some other things I like about it? The trigger is amazing and the trigger group can be dropped in under a minute. Likewise, I can pull the entire action off the stock without having to remove the recoil pad. As a competition gun, the whole thing is designed to last a long time and facilitate rebuilding. If I'm able to wear this ugn out permanently, I'll consider that the crowning achievement of my lifetime.

Furthermore, the service is outstanding. I don't live too far from the factory, and if I need something done, chances are they can do the work while I wait. The folks at Kolar have already shown a willingness and ability to go the extra mile to make sure that everything is perfect... not just right, but perfect.

So, what do I think a gun like this brings to the table? In my case, I live the BA/UU/R lifestyle, and have for a number of years. I'm very competetive within my state, and this upcoming year will be shooting at a number of major events throughout the country. To put it plainly... this gun gives me no excuses. I know that my equipment is good enough to carry me as far as my desire, motivation and skill can take me. The features I outlined above are important, but it's this last that I think is the biggest... at least for me.

An expensive custom-made gun is no magic wand. But, neither is it just so much eye candy. There are some tangible benefits, and it's up to each person to decide if those benefits are worth it to them.
 
$30,000 and more gives you a work of art in a firearm along with the best parts. Those that own these things do so for the intangible feeling they get from such a piece. On a strictly practical and functional level any expensive art makes little sense. Why pay millions for a Rembrandt when a digital poster or enlarged photo can be just as colorful or more realistic?
 
My brothers....when will you ever learn...

Bling_Bling.jpg
 
Status. Right, how could I have forgotten? I guess the thing I like the most is that now I can look down on everyone with one of those cheap common guns. :rolleyes: :banghead:

Just a little show of hands...

For those who don't "get" expensive shotguns, have you spent any time shooting one? How often do you actually shoot? Do you compete?

Not too many years ago, I was appalled that a new autoloader would cost $750. In the intervening years, I've shot a LOT and am increasing the amount each year. Frankly, as expensive as my Kolar was, I'm likely to spend almost that amount in travel, lodging, entree fees, practice and ammo in the upcoming year.

But yeah, I guess it really is just about the status. :fire:
 
Long ago I learned not to decide how people should spend their money

A $30,000 shotgun would never bring a smile to my face. My spending $300 or more dollars for a custom knive would get the same reaction from a purveyor of fine shotguns.
 
I think TrapperReady tried to make an eloquent point about developing skills and seeking superior equipment towards that end. It's not my place to decide where another persons money should be spent.

I languished about purchasing a "high end" .22LR pistol until I considered that I shoot more .22LR than anything else combined. Why shouldn't the most used gun also be the finest? This isn't to say that safe queens don't have a legitimate reason for existance so much as to say that for me, utility is key.

With all that said, I find the continued assumption that doubles and o/u's SHOULD cost so much is fatally flawed. Please note that I consider the "custom 1911" thing to be a crock as well. The notion that everything should be handfitted and laboriously crafted is in keeping with a collector mindset. With advances in CNC technology and 3D modeling, there isn't much of a reason to continue the myth that consumers must consider $1,500.00 the "entry level" for a design that's been essentially standard for over 100 years.
 
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Longest post Ive read today, Im pretty tired so its very possible that I missed the point. Ill try again in the morning.
 
Trapper: Well stated in post 8.

You know, its different strikes for different folks and life is about compromises.

I drive a 5 year old car with 130K miles, I buy my jeans from K-mart, and my suits from the Men's Wearhouse. But.....my passions are mechanical watches, fine shotguns, and bamboo flyrods. My everday watch is a Rolex (as is evry other I own 'cept for the odd Omega that somehow slipped into the mix). My primary skeet and trap guns are rebuilt Remmie 3200's restocked with Grade F wood fitted to me. My next purchase will be a tubed K-80 set with carrier bbl for the sub guages. As for bamboo flyrods, lets not go there right now please!

Will I give up my herd of 870s or be ashamed or hesitant to use a "lesser gun"? Absolutely not, and for the most part of my life I made do and could again if required. But the point is I don't have to. My likes my not be yours, doesn't make yours wrong, just different. Whats great about this country is you can have what you want and the opportunity to get it if you want it badly enough. Capitalism at its finest! Find out what they want, build them, and they will come. So, if you like it and can get it, do so.

(Mild rant off):cool:

BTW, though I don't think I've met Trapper, Dave, or Steve, it was folks like them on the skeet and trap fields who stoked my passion for "highend" shotguns by giving me the opportunity to shoot theirs in my younger days. Thanks to all those guys!
 
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What does a Rolls Royce or a Ferrari get your over a Ford? Extreme attention to detail, aesthetics, quality, and a custom fit. Options you wouldn't even dream existed. Luxury. Is that worth $30,000? Enough people think so that they keep expensive shotguns on the market.

Many people can't or won't appreciate these details, especially with that price in the back of their heads. I can't. But some of them seem downright threatened that others can. :scrutiny:
 
I don't think the car analogy is the correct one.

How about a suit.

Yes, you can go get a 42 Regular off the rack for less then $300 (someplaces even have then for $99).

But to a professional tailor and get a suit that fitted to you and hand/custom made of some of the finest material, so that it fits you to a tee.

Which would you rather wear ????


That's the difference between the low end guns and the high $$$ gun.

I don't begrudge anyone what they shoot and hope one day to join the ranks and have my own fitted shotgun. I shoot low end shotguns 'cause thats what I can afford now (until the kids grow-up and colleges are paid for). In the meantime, I just want as many people as possible out there breaking clays.
 
Fine things

The world would be very bland if it only had 870's, and just good enough automobiles and boats.
It makes me happy to see a fine insturment used and enjoyed.
I had a Westley Richards double rifle, used it on Whitetails. Wish I still had it.
 
Modern machine-made parts can be assembled into good useful guns, but I'm always reminded of an interview I read. A very high end Italian shotgun maker (the $100k type) said that they use CNC machines to get things started, but it's the skilled handwork that makes the parts fit precisely for the best function, reliability and service life possible. I believe the actual quote was "It's the last file stroke that counts." And trained, experienced skill like that costs money. A lot of money. You can get very close to a perfect fit with machines, but tolerances stack and perfection, if possible at all, is a matter of luck when the parts are run down the assembly line.

I am going to get a nice 12 ga. O/U if I can ever decide which one - B. Rizzini, Guerini, Blaser, Beretta, who knows. It'll happen when it's meant to be and I've learned patience. Everytime I see a $3500 gun I like it's sitting next to one that's $6600 and a little more tempting, but just not quite right. I'm just too picky and cheap to write the check. It's the same reason I'm driving a 5-y-old Forester - too cheap, and lazy, to go buy a new one.

It's funny though, I didn't have any trouble making a decision when it came to buying a pocket knife. I was so bored with the gun selection at a gun show that I actually stopped to glance at the knives. I hefted quite a few folders and one felt right. I asked the dealer who made it and how much it was and got an answer. Chris who? Never heard of him. :) So that's how I bought a small Sebenza for less than the $330 list and then later bought another one to carry on those days when I hadn't had time to clean the caulk, paint or roofing tar off of the first one. Status? Nah. Quality. It's all about quality.

(After I got home from the show I googled Chris Reeve and found out that he was very well known and that I got a good deal.)

My SX-1 field model only cost me $450 last year. I tried to get them down another $50, but it was just too nice and they knew it wouldn't stay on the rack very long. Quality and status at a very fair price. :)

John
 
To be honest, I'm not aware of any "shooting" O/U for targets that costs $30,000. You can buy a highend O/U and have custom wood, engraving and spend enormous amounts of money, far exceeding $30,000. But, they are works of "art". It's like buying a painting that shoots. ;)

Well known, highend, target grade O/Us run around $8,000...give or take a couple of thousand either way. :D
 
It's time for some new friends

If your circle of friends looks down on you for shooting an 870 it's time to find some new friends.
Reminds me of a show I was watching on tv last week a guy in England was shooting birds with a pair of H&H OU's this guy was wearing a suit and tie. He had a guy loading his guns for him and would pass him the loaded shotguns as needed. The guy loading was also wearing a suit and a tie and a fancy leather shell holder. Well Mr. Fancy clothes was blasting away and hitting next to nothing with his high dollar shotgun. I could have done better than he did with a Sears and Roebuck single shot.
 
Some high end O/Us are competition guns like the Alfermann, the new "Parker Bros" New Reliable and the SO series from Beretta. Many more are collector's items meant more for show than use. Some are high art in the purest sense.

There's a couple kinds of snobbery that relate to shotguns. One kind goes for the high end guns and sneers at factory made shotguns.

The other sneers at the first group and insists that anyone paying more than a week's pay for a shotgun is a citiot. Reverse snobbery.

Niether group truly represents shotgunners,even those who like high or low end shotguns.

Shoot what you want to and what gladdens your heart, It's all good....
 
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