What does "hard cast" mean exactly?

[Balrog]

And how does one know if a lead bullet is hard cast?

I am looking at using some of the Laser Cast Oregon Trail 240g SWC bullets in low to mid range 44 magnum loads. Would they be a good choice?

Are Laser Cast bullets considered hard cast?

How fast is it OK to push them?

 

[Walkalong]

Hard cast is often used to mean anything not swaged, which is real soft. The BHN of the alloy is what you need to know. There is no defined use of hard cast, so the hardness could vary quite a bit and be called hard cast by the maker.

Oregon Trail bullets have a good rep. I would think they would have the BHN on their website.

 

[Robert Palermo /Penn Bullets]

Hard cast is a generic term that was used by bullet casters to differentiate their bullets from the soft swagged bullets as offered by Hornaday, Speer and Star bullet works as well as other swaged bullet makers.
Various bullet makers claimed "hard cast" for everything from wheel weight alloy up to Linotype alloys.
Some would go by BHN ( Brinnel Hardness Number) numbers that gave some indication of hardness while others would state their alloy mix.
The most common alloy as used by some of the better companies was the 2/6 mix comprised of 2% tin and 6% antimony with a BHN of around 16-18 and this alloy proved to be adequate in a range of applications.

Others like Oregon Trail/ Laser Cast and myself developed different higher strength alloys that offered BHN Numbers that were in the 20+ range that gave better performance for some applications. They would serve you well with medium to full velocity Mag loads.
Other companies Like Missouri and ourselves also offer "softer alloys" with lower BHN numbers for low speed applications that do not require the harder alloys.

I have more information on my web site at www.pennbullets.com

 

[qajaq59]

Bret, over in the cast bullet forum, has been trying to get everyone to come to a concensus on defining soft, hard etc. Not sure if anything will come from it. Myself, I like using BHN numbers because I can readily measure those.

 

[MissouriBullet]

Just to note regarding 18 BHN bullets and workable velocities: Our .357's (18 BHN) are routinely loaded to 1350 fps with minimal to no leading. Likewise, 1900 fps from our #1 Carbine 115 grain 18 BHN bullet. And a recent thread in this forum documented no leading problems with our .44 SWC at 18 BHN running 20 grains 2400.

Bore fit and finish, as has been noted, ranks highly in importance along with alloy hardness.

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

I had very minor leading with the lasercast 240 SWCs in my .44. I was using them with 23 grains of H110 in an 8 3/8" 629, so the velocities were fairly high. (Don't have a chrono) I gave the MBC 240 SWCs a try. They have had no leading whatsoever in 2000+ rounds, they're cheaper, and I get better accuracy, as well.

 

[MissouriBullet]

That load would be good for around 1425 fps from a 6" barrel, I believe, and the optimal brinell hardness would be about 20, so that performance is right in line with the math. And of course we must remember that St. Elmer ran his guns on wheelweights with a BHN of about 12 and maybe another BHN or two for the tin he added.

 

[zxcvbob]

The Oregon Trails LaserCast bullets you are looking at are very good -- and overpriced in my opinion. I still have a few that I bought years ago when they were affordable and I like them a lot. I've shot hundreds of them at 1200-1350 fps in a heavy .45 Colt revolver with little-or-no leading.

But you can get just as good bullets direct from any of the dozens (hundreds?) of small commercial bullet casters. Or cast them yourself if you have a source of hard lead.

If you can just barely mark the base of the bullet with your thumbnail (or not at all), and it has decent bullet lube, and is not too small, it should work just fine for your application. If the bullet is too small, it still might work OK with maximum loads of fast or medium-burning powder (Blue Dot or faster) to kick it in the butt hard enough to expand the bullet base and seal the bore.

 

[243winxb]

BHN is not Everything.

A bullet can be hard and still lead the barrel if the proper amount of tin is not added.

Lyman > While antimony is used to harden the bullet, the mixture of tin is critical, for while antimony mixes with lead in its molten state, it will not remain mixed when it solidifies. If tin were not added, we would have pure antimony crystals surrounded by pure lead. A bullet of this type , while it feels hard , would certainly lead the bore and eliminate all potential for accuracy.. In a lead-tin-antimony mixture, the antimony crystals will be present just the same, but they will be imbedded in a lead-tin mixutre. As the bullet cools the tin will form around the antimony-lead keeping your bullets from leading the bore.

Click photo for larger view.

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[rcmodel]

I use a very scientific & proven method that is also very cheap.
Free in fact.

If I can scratch it with my thumbnail, it is Soft.
If I can't scratch it with my thumbnail, it is Hard.
If it breaks instead of bends, it is Linotype.

Soft is for standard calibers & velocity's.
Hard is for Magnums & Glocks.
Linotype is for rifles.

rc

 

[CraigC]

Most commercial cast bullets are cast way too hard to survive shipment and handling. As was stated, Elmer Keith cast his around 12bhn, which is plenty for the loads he most commonly used. Here's an interesting article on hardness as it relates to obturation by Glen Fryxell.

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/obturation.htm

 

[Robert Palermo /Penn Bullets]

A bullet can be hard and still lead the barrel if the proper amount of tin is not added. Click photo for larger view.

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This is the main reason why I don't like or list BHN numbers as the number doesn't tell you anything about the proper blend of materials and the alloys strength.
Some badly cast bullets will measure high BHN's and be very poor performers for this very reason. Tin is the most expensive of the componet parts of the alloy.

Elmers design relied on a very large deep lubrication groove. Obturation is not always necessary as long as the bullet fit is at or slightly larger than your largest dimension .

 

[Jeff H]

Obturation is not always necessary as long as the bullet fit is at or slightly larger than your largest dimension .

QFT.

The caster I buy from uses the same alloy for all the bullets I buy (somewhere around 18). I can shoot 700fps out of my 1911, or 1500fps out of the 357Blackhawk and get no or minimal leading in either, or any of my guns for that matter. There is something to be said for properly sized bullets.

 

[Walkalong]

I'll go one further, there is a LOT to be said about properly sized bullets. Surely is.

 

[Balrog]

Who makes good quality hard cast bullets for hunting applications?
Are the Laser Max good for that, or is something else needed?

 

[Robert Palermo /Penn Bullets]

Who makes good quality hard cast bullets for hunting applications?
Are the Laser Max good for that, or is something else needed?

I offer several different bullets suitible for hunting applications including the world famous SSK series and Thunderheads. Cast Performance is another that features many of the LBT designs. Depends on the caliber and what you are planning on hunting. There are many choices.

 

[LiveLife]

I use a very scientific & proven method that is also very cheap.
Free in fact.

If I can scratch it with my thumbnail, it is Soft.
If I can't scratch it with my thumbnail, it is Hard.

How about that! You just made me laugh.

 

[Walkalong]

But it is a pretty good method.

 

[MCMXI]

Just to note regarding 18 BHN bullets and workable velocities: Our .357's (18 BHN) are routinely loaded to 1350 fps with minimal to no leading. Likewise, 1900 fps from our #1 Carbine 115 grain 18 BHN bullet. And a recent thread in this forum documented no leading problems with our .44 SWC at 18 BHN running 20 grains 2400.

I recently ordered and received 2,000 of your 180gr .357 bullets and last week I made up loads of 13.0gr and 13.5gr of H110 and Federal magnum primers. I shot both loads at 15 yards this past Friday through a 3" and 4" GP100. I'm very pleased with the results. I didn't chronograph the loads but they should be fairly fast. After cleaning both revolvers when I got home, there was no leading. Accuracy was good to very good and recoil was laughable. I was particularly pleased with the 3" GP100. 13.0gr loads were centered but 5" to 6" high at 15 yards. If I can find a taller front sight all will be good. I want to work up one hot, accurate load for my Marlin 1894CSS using the 180gr bullets. Then I'll see how the same load performs in the Rugers.

Who makes good quality hard cast bullets for hunting applications?

I have 5,000 or so Oregon Trail bullets and have zero complaints with them. Right now, MBC and OT will be getting all of my business. OT Trueshot bullets are excellent hunting bullets but their Laser Cast line are very good too. Some swear by hardcast bullets for hunting. The gas-checked bullets such as the Trueshot are supposed to stop or reduce leading, but if you don't get leading with regular hardcast bullets at suitable hunting velocities, why pay the extra money for gas-checked. Dead is dead!!

 

[qajaq59]

I use a very scientific & proven method that is also very cheap.
Free in fact.

If I can scratch it with my thumbnail, it is Soft.
If I can't scratch it with my thumbnail, it is Hard.

And you kept it secret from the rest of us? Shame, RC shame. LOL