What does the Dead Dog incident tell us about 'To Serve and Protect'?

[DaveB]

Regarding the dog shooter:

A few posters have called the officer’s training into question. Unfortunately, I think that the officer was acting according to his 'training' - his own Dept. has stated that he was following procedure. Here’s the real problem: Police Departments have become militarized.

This has implications.

Hardening of the us-vs-them attitude (with us=LEOs and them=everybody else). A corollary of this is the military way of thinking: the individual's primary loyalty is to his buddy and his unit. This means that LEOs protect their own, sometimes at the expense of protecting those they are supposed to serve (see Columbine).

The LEO mindset that views all interactions with civilians as potentially dangerous: allowing the LEOs to demand compliance, to expect it, and to react with force whenever they don't get the level of submission they expect.

The readiness to use overwhelming force (SWAT) at the slightest provocation.

The idea that Cops are employed to serve the people is out of fashion. Were I so inclined, I might claim that LEOs are employed to serve power. Their own, and the Government's.

db

 

[TheeBadOne]

alienation

Main Entry: alien·ation
Pronunciation: "A-lE-&-'nA-sh&n, "Al-y&-
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : a withdrawing or separation of a person or a person's affections from an object or position of former attachment : ESTRANGEMENT <alienation ... from the values of one's society and family -- S. L. Halleck>
-----------------------------------------

Food for thought. If 1% of the cops are the problem, what about the other 99%. When they visit boards all they see are threads about how bad the cops are, how corupt, evil, etc. Wonder how they feel after unending attacks on themselves? They are lumped in with the 1% and cursed and dismissed. All the police threads do have a high view rate, and they are all negative. With 99% of the officers the good guys you'd think someone (other than a cop) would post a positive thread about police. I wonder why the cops get hardened and withdrawn.....if they are always slapped in the face by "Joe citizen".....................

 

[Blackcloud6]

"What does the Dead Dog incident tell us about 'To Serve and Protect'? "

It tells me that no matter what, in these kinds of situations, things can go wrong.

 

[DaveB]

I'm guessing that I need to repeat: I do not hold the individual LEOs responsible for most cases of 'cops out of control'. It's their training, and their leadership, that need to be evaluated.

Most cops I know are decent, hardworking people, who do it (police work) because it needs to be done.

The few that I have known who were in it for the power are the exceptions.

db

 

[Airwolf]

I think your post hits the nail on the head.

This country is so divided, not along race lines (although there's that too) but between the "commoners" and the "elite". Falling into the latter category are LEO's of all types, Government "officials" (bureaucrats with power), elected officials and the media/entertainment types.

Everyone else falls into the former category.

Incidents like this just illustrate that there is a ticking time bomb in our society. What event or combination of events eventually triggers that bomb? I don’t know but I’m more convinced than ever that it will go off.

That’s one of the primary reasons I plan to get out of California as soon as possible and head to rural Washington or Idaho. The LAST place I want to be is in a heavily urban area surrounded by complacent (and compliant) sheep when TSHTF.

To quote from one of my favorite series:

"No boom?"
"No boom."
"No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here. Boom, sooner or later. BOOM!"

 

[ahenry]

If 1% of the cops are the problem, what about the other 99%. When they visit boards all they see are threads about how bad the cops are, how corupt, evil, etc. Wonder how they feel after unending attacks on themselves? They are lumped in with the 1% and cursed and dismissed. All the police threads do have a high view rate, and they are all negative. With 99% of the officers the good guys you'd think someone (other than a cop) would post a positive thread about police. I wonder why the cops get hardened and withdrawn.....if they are always slapped in the face by "Joe citizen".....................

I once belonged to an organization whose members were far and away excellent individuals. The vast, vast majority of the members were the right sort of folks. A few “bad applesâ€, which I would define as more misguided than actually bad people, really tarnished the image of the whole group. It behooved me, and I think it behooves police departments, to consider this alienation and why it happens. In my experience, only rarely is a person or group wrongly estranged. There are times when improvement is called for, and the less a person is able to take such criticism, the less I want that person in authority...over anybody.

 

[Art Eatman]

Drifting off from the dog-thing for a moment, I know of no other occupation where the workforce has to deal with as much lying, shucking and jiving, and being reviled as do LEOs. It's amazing that so many are able to maintain any sort of positive attitude about serving and protecting.

And, yeah, all it takes is a very small number of bad-news incidents for *all* the Good Guys to get dissed.

A cop's gotta make a decision in a split-second that some folks take weeks and months to second-guess with the 20/20 vision of hindsight.

This doesn't mean that there should be no accountability for an attack of stoopiditis, of course. However, it's usually the local, elected politicos who do the stone-walling...

Art

 

[El Tejon]

It's not about the dog. The dog was just a dog. The problem allegedly was to stop these people in the first place.

It's about hysteria of the "soccermommies" to "do something." It's about attempts of the politicians to turn the police from professional witnesses into Platonic Guardians.

 

[DeltaElite]

It tells me that aggressive dogs get shot.
I won't get bit for anybody.
That was a messed up situation, but the officer was correct in eliminating the dog that was threatening him and others.

 

[Marko Kloos]

That was a messed up situation, but the officer was correct in eliminating the dog that was threatening him and others.

DeltaElite,

the LEOs put themselves into that situation by omission. They saw the dogs in the car, they didn't close the doors when repeatedly asked by the owners, and then they automatically assumed "hostile dog" when the pooch jumped out. Most any dog would have left the car with the doors left open, especially when its were outside and still in plain view. Anybody who fails to grasp that situation does not have very good situational awareness and analysis skills.

But that's OK...in this day and age, a dude can pull a wallet and get plugged with forty-odd rounds, and someone will still maintain that the officers on the scene didn't do a thing wrong. Overzealous and aggressive enforcement combined with the "one tool fits all" attitude just serves to cause incidents like this one.

Did the officers at the traffic stop have aural exclusion, refusing to listen to the owner's repeated requests to close the car doors? They were in full "felony arrest" mode, where the only proper response to an arrestee's utterance seems to be "Shut up".

The alienation between the Commoners and the increasingly aggressive and militarized police is increasing at a rapid pace. I have a great deal of respect for my local LEOs, and I concede that 90% of all cops are good and upstanding civil servants. Criticism of individual officers or police actions is not "cop bashing". I am honestly concerned about the increased rift between Joe Citizen and the LEOs. Once upon a time, cops were citizens with a badge...now it increasingly feels like they're masters instead of civil servants. Whatever you do when on duty..if it's not on the evening news and impossible to spin, the Blue Wall of Silence will shield you.

The majority of LEOs, the ones who are not power-tripping and not fortified with the mindset of "going into battle" at the beginning of each shift...those LEOs are done a great disservice by the lack of accountability attitudes displayed by the minority sometimes.

 

[DeltaElite]

Yawn.
I never said that they shouldn't have shut the door, all I said was that an aggressive dog gets shot.
Also, from what I read of that situation, I would have handled it very differently, but since I wasn't there I won't elaborate.
BTW, the Diallo shooters did plenty wrong, IMHO. It seems they never heard of a flashlight or target identification.

The rest of your post towards me is just a post to air you gripes towards Leo's in general. Trust me, I am a commoner also.
I am glad I provided you with yet another venue to vent your frustrations and personal complaints.

 

[Zander]

...all I said was that an aggressive dog gets shot.

If the dog was so darn aggressive, why did it sit passively in the car until the trooper ["I got a dog in here."] stuck his head in?

But all of this analysis on the supposed "aggressiveness" of the dog ignores the most basic question:

What the heck was this officer [and I use the term lightly] doing in this mix with his oh-so-tactical shotgun in hand?

I want to hear the THP tape that verifies that Officer Goober was responding to a request for backup. I don't believe it happened. Do I believe that the contention is part of an attempted coverup by the brass? You bet I do...

And I have a RIGHT to know...that fool is going to be burning my tax dollars to settle a lawsuit that never should have happened.

I won't get bit for anybody.

Officer Goober couldn't have gotten bit if he'd stayed at the Sonic with his buds. He wasn't needed; he was in the way and precipitated a terrible incident because he was either ill-trained or out of control or both. If I were on that force, I wouldn't want him anywhere near me...especially with a shotgun in his hands. It's obvious he can't be trusted to have a cool head under the lightest of stress.

 

[DeltaElite]

Do you feel better now that you got to vent?

Watch the tape, the dog was coming aggressively towards him.
True the situation was preventable, but that doesn't change whether or not the dog was aggressive, or at what point during the encouter the dog became aggressive.

Your assumptions that the officer was not requested and should not have been there, just show your basic distrust and contempt for the Le involved.
He was probably there, because it was the closest thing to a hot call he has been to in weeks.
Is his name Ofc Goober? Or is that just another way to dehumanize the Ofc and empower you on a personal level?
You seem to have some issues, that I am not going to be able to help you with.

Is the brass at that PD putting a spin on everything? Sure they are, all brass lie, they lie so often that they don't know when they are telling the truth anymore.
I do find it odd that the brass is backing the officer, we don't get that where I am, they always hang us out on a limb. :banghead:

 

[ojibweindian]

..."To Serve and Protect?"

That's it's okay to have your family treated like s*** and have your pet shot because of a misplaced wallet.

Seems like others here think the same thing.

Beginning to seriously consider booby trapping my home and car for just such an eventuality.

 

[DeltaElite]

Since this topic is running in two threads, I will repeat myself here.

Yanno, I am still not seeing why a "felony stop" was done at all.
Oh well, that's why I don't trust cops, even though I am one.

 

[El Tejon]

lend, perhaps shooting of the animal was symptomatic of something else, perhaps it was self-defence. I know people get upset over animals being destroyed more than humans so emotion over critters or property clutters the issue.

But the real problem is pulling the family over to begin with. The problem is that police have been transmorgified into "mobile saviours" instead of the eyes, ears, and hands of the prosecutor by silly politicians seeking the vote of a soccermommie who see their government as their husband.

The only way to conclude that a lost wallet is evidence of a robbery commited by the owner of the wallet is to buy into the hysteria of the soccermommie. The "dead dog" is symptomatic of the Nanny State that wants "safety" at the expense of liberty.

 

[Boats]

"Serve and Protect?"

Looks to me like "serve" left the scene during the WOD and "protect" is becoming increasingly suspect.

When I saw the video from Tennessee one of the things that flashed across my mind is "Look white America, you're getting a taste of the guilty until proven innocent treatment that even many middle class blacks and latinos complain of."

If that stop in Tennessee is so uncomfortable to so many people, perhaps the entire police/public relationship needs to be rebalanced in favor of leaving people alone for the ticky-tack stuff or at least not having them chew gravel without a clearly confirmed danger.

My father, who was a judge, was no weeping liberal, but he did not brook the police misuse of authority either. One of my favorite sayings of his I once heard him say to a police officer who hadn't bothered to get a warrant was this: "Son if you want policing to be easy, move to North Korea." His order suppressing evidence was never appealed by the state.

Any officer who complains about having to show the public too much deference should be shown the door.

 

[DaveB]

From //prorev.com...

One of the best descriptions of the proper role of a law enforcement officer was that delivered by Alexander Hamilton to the first group of officers of the Revenue Marine, later the US Coast Guard. Said Hamilton:

"While I recommend in the strongest terms to the respective officers, activity, vigilance and firmness, I feel no less solicitude that their deportment may be marked with prudence, moderation and good temper. . . They will bear in mind that their countrymen are freemen, and as such are impatient of everything that bears the least mark of domineering spirit. They will, therefore refrain, with the most guarded circumspection, from whatever has the semblance of hautiness, rudeness or insult. If obstacles occur, they will remember that they are under the particular protection of the laws and they can meet with nothing disagreeable in the execution of their duty which these will not severely reprehend. . . This reflection, and regard to the good of the service, will prevent at all times a spirit of irritation or resentment. They will endeavor to overcome difficulties, if any are experienced, by a cool and temperate perseverance in their duty -- by address and moderation rather than by vehemence and violence."

This is a nice way of saying that citizens should be treated respectfully.

db

 

[dave]

"Food for thought. If 1% of the cops are the problem, what about the other 99%. When they visit boards all they see are threads about how bad the cops are, how corupt, evil, etc. Wonder how they feel after unending attacks on themselves? They are lumped in with the 1% and cursed and dismissed. All the police threads do have a high view rate, and they are all negative. With 99% of the officers the good guys you'd think someone (other than a cop) would post a positive thread about police. I wonder why the cops get hardened and withdrawn.....if they are always slapped in the face by "Joe citizen"....................." by TheeBadOne




My Granddad once told me something I've never forgotten;

Son, if they're going to hang you as a horse thief, then go ahead and steal the horse"


I sit here asking myself why I don't just "go ahead and steal the horse". Self doesn't have much to say.

"People get the type of police they deserve". If you don't know who said that or what it means, it most likely proves my point.


But then I remember, all gun owners are stupid, crazy, uneducated malcontents, just waiting for a chance to kill children because they can't handle living in a world where, without their guns, they would go unnoticed. And now I'm happy once more.

 

[Daniel T]

Art:

Drifting off from the dog-thing for a moment, I know of no other occupation where the workforce has to deal with as much lying, shucking and jiving, and being reviled as do LEOs.

Why does this suprise you? What other occupation can legally separate you from your life or freedom?

 

[TarpleyG]

If the ossifer had half a brain and knew anything at all about dogs outside what he reads/sees/hears in the media, this wouldn't have happened. I saw the video and the dog looked anything but aggressive to me. A 180 lb man with buckshot against a 50 lb dog with teeth is hardly a fair fight. If he bites, then shoot him. If the officer had been alone in that situation and could not have been rescued by his partner in case of attack it might have been different. Also, why not just close the doors like the owner's asked. There were a couple of officers there to handle that little task.

Not knock LEOs and my best friend is one and I considered it for a while, but in my town, whenever there is a traffic stop, every squad in the cuty is there for it. This tells me that 1) they need more to keep them busy or less patrol, or 2) they are scared of thier own shadow. I live in a suburb of Ft. Lauderdale and about the only crimes that occur are the local kids breaking stuff or shoplifting.

Being a cop is all about discretion and judgement. This cop, with his 12 ga pump, did not excercise any "good" discretion or "good" judgement IMO. I would have no sooner pulled the trigger on that dog as I would have on a person approaching me the same way. The dog was cleary displaying a friendly attitude from the video. Maybe the cop just panicked, I don't know. It's sad that it happened.

GT

 

[Selfdfenz]

If the passengers of cars stopped at some time in the future on Tenn. Hwys. follow the standard greeting ritual of the THP it will go like this:

1.THP crusier lights up the civilian vech
2.Civilian auto pulls to the side of the road and stops, crusier pulls up behind it
3.Civilian occupant notices the THP patrol car contain one or more THP officers.
4. Civilain occupant announces to other passengers we have a THP Officer here
5. THP steps from the patrol vech. aimlessly circles the area on foot briefly and
6. Civilain occupant shoots THP officer in the head an kills him instantly
7. Other passengers handcuff other Officer(s) at gunpoint and call for additional civilian backup.

On review of the film footage statments to the point that procedurers were being followed are made public.

Sounds foolish and unreasonable, does it not?
Just like the original.

The cop(s) screwed up.
If you are comfortable letting LEO "determine" what is and isn't an aggressive dog by sight alone, and then shoot the ones they don't like, you should be ok with them shooting people on the side of the road if they look like they "might" have committed a crime.
This has nothing to do with training. The Officer was using poor/no judgement and making an assessment he was unqualified to make.
In cases of litigation of dog bites/attacks, animal behavior experts serve as expert witnesses in court. Not COPS! LEO often are placed on the stand but seldom are they considered or admitted as Experts of anything! I would love to have this Bozo on the stand.
No trial lawyers can be found that are are too nasty or dishonest to rip every cent they can out of the THP for this. They will sure get paid!

I hope they fire this "officer" twice. Another one for the Annals of the JBTs of America.

S-

 

[DaveB]

This has nothing to do with training. The Officer was using poor/no judgement and making an assessment he was unqualified to make.

That's what training is supposed to be about: making the cops aware of what they can (and can not) do in forseeable situations.

Of course the cop's judgement was bad/absent here, but the ultimate responsibility for his actions rests with his superiors.

I don't want to see anybody burned at the stake. I do want to see some acknowledgement that when someone 'follows procedure' and bad things happen because of it, there is some reexamination of the procedure.

Isn't that what makes (some of) us adults - that we learn from our mistakes?

db

 

[DeltaElite]

Training varies greatly from agency to agency.
Cookeville is a town of about 24,000 people so I am guessing they have about 20 or so cops.

So how much training do they really get?

What was the training, if any for that particular situation?

Here's a link that shows the history of their chief.
Porno and Overtime Fraud

I am not betting that Cookeville PD is on the cutting edge of training.

 

[DaveB]

Delta, I'll agree that you have a point. However,

my home town is roughly half as big as Cookville and, if I know the people that train our PD and SO as well I as I think I do, the level of trainig here is second to none - isn't this a State (CO vs. TN) question, anyway?

In any case, if you're right, and Cookville (and TN) can't afford comprehensive LEO training...

How, in God's name, can they then give these people guns and send them out to control the rest of us???

db