What does the Dead Dog incident tell us about 'To Serve and Protect'?

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I dunno Dave, I dunno. They send em out and hope for the best. Pretty scary yanno.
Sometimes small agencies get the best training, due to federal funding and such. You can send a small group of cops to training at a small price.
Sometimes they don't.

From the internal problems with that agencies chief, I am doubtful the troops are getting good training.
 
Watch the tape, the dog was coming aggressively towards him.
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I watched the tape. The dog comes out of the car and prances out of view to the right. From what you could see of the dog, he didn't look aggressive at all. He came right by the officer standing in the door of the vehicle who had just said, "We've got a dog in here." Didn't bite him, though.
The full video is reported to include the family asking for the doors to be shut. When I read the 2 initial news reports, written by the same reporter, with an account from the family's perspective and an account from the police officers' perspective, I noted that the family's account had the "ring of truth." I also noted that the family's repeated request that the doors be shut to contain the dogs was not mentioned in the police version of events. Now, apparently, there is corroboration that they did in fact make such a request. I wonder why the police didn't address this in their report. It was clear from the initial police version that they had some familiarity with the charges that the Smoak family had leveled at them, as they did address the charge that the "officer" that had shot the dog had smiled about it later, even after it had become clear that this wasn't a dangerous gang of outlaws, but an innocent family on a vacation. Now the above story gives an explanation that the doors weren't shut because "it was a felony stop and the trooper could have potentially been in the line of fire." The tape clearly shows that there is an officer standing right at the door, bent over, looking into the car, commenting that there is, in fact, a dog in the car. Closing the door would not have put this officer into any line of fire that he wasn't already in. That explanation is clearly bogus. Whether it's a due to ignorance or malice I can't prove, but it looks to me that the Smoak family version of the shooting is pretty close to reality, and the TN LEO version smells badly.
 
I wonder if the other THP cars had dashcams also?
The more video the better, because the one video I have seen, the one on the links provided in the thread, don't really show much to say that the dog was aggressive or not.
So I recant my earlier assertion that the dog was aggressive. :eek:
The actions of the officer seem to indicate that he was afraid of something, real or imagined.

No matter what, it looks like a Charlie Foxtrot, all on the word of someone on a cell phone. :rolleyes:
 
I have sat back and read all the replys to this thread and I just have to put in my 2 cents worth.

Shooting the dog was an over reaction to a situation that need noy have occurred. All that needed to be done was for an Officer to have closed the blankety blank car door.

The Felony stop seems to have been conducted according to proper procedures, based on the information available to the LEOs involved. The major fault seems to have been in the information given to them prior to the stop.

Part of the problem lies in the mindset of todays LEOs. Through the miracles of television and Video games, they are bombarded with what I like to call the SWAT mentality, where every incident is a potential disaster that can only be resolved with overwhelming force. This used to be called the John Wayne syndrome or more recently the Dirty Harry Syndrome

The leadership of most Departments is oriented towards pro-active law enforcement rather than the reactive mindset of years gone by. This is in turn brought on by pressure from Politicos concerned with securing reelection by appeasing their constituants. The result is pressure placed on the LEO on patrrol to produce results that will reflect a reduction in crime making said politicos look good.

Combine all the above factors and the results of the Tenn. incident are almost predictable.
 
My $.02 on this thread...

Lesson learned by Baba Louie regarding this (and other threads, same topic)

Keep your wallet in your possession.

When traveling with dogs, keep them under your control (we use a dog seat belt harness).

Avoid TN/Cookeville if possible?;)

Like any profession, police depts. get the bad with the good.

We could be talking medicine here and medical malpractice is now a way of life in America. Hard to prove tho' unless you get another medical expert to testify against one another.

If I understand correctly, the officer in question has been reassigned other dutys. You can expect both THP and Cookeville PD training and 911 dispatch procedures to come under a magnifying glass in the very near future. You can expect Office Hall(?) and his family to be broken financially.

Maybe that's a good thing? Some here are ready to cast the first stone.

In Las Vegas, Tuesday evenings are LVMPD command center open house nights. If your town, county, etc, have something like that, go to it and discuss this event with your local friendly professional police department. If your local dept. doesn't have an open house night and you're REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS EVENT, help them by volunteering to start an open house. Get your kids involved as well.

If your Dept. has a Citizen's Academy (LV Metro and NLV PD do), sign up for a class.

Become part of the solution, make a new friend who wears a uniform and has to deal with situations like this (shoot or no shoot), go for a ride-along or three.

If you just want to sit here and tell the world how sorry our police dept's have become, I guess that's OK too.

In the meantime, 500,000 Americans are in the middle eastern asia area about to do something large and loud with unknown numbers of potential WIA/KIA.

Put this in perspective, everyone learn from it what you can or will and I'll hope that we all try to continue walking the proverbial high road.

Sorry. Had to get the rant out. It's only worth the $.02, if that.

Adios
 
In the meantime, 500,000 Americans are in the middle eastern asia area about to do something large and loud with unknown numbers of potential WIA/KIA.

Put this in perspective,
Click to expand...

My perspective is why are we bothering to go to war with some tin pot dicatator ... to protect our right to become a police state?
 
all on the word of someone on a cell phone.
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I've got a cell phone, but I've tried to stick to the facts when talking to 911 operators. One time while driving south down 163 I saw an accident in the northbound lanes, (car laying on its roof) with no LE on scene. Dialed 911 and then passed another accident in the southbound lane around a curve with LE present. 911 answered and I informed the 911 operator about the accident in the northbound lane and she mentioned that LE were on scene at which point I let her know that there were two accident scenes and that LE was only present at one of them and that it looked like a family was standing on the shoulder of the northbound lane with their car on its roof. LE didn't know there were two accidents. Anyway, these were facts. I didn’t try to explain how the car came to be on its roof and that they were driving too fast when they hit that curve and physics being what they are the car ended up on its roof ... LE can handle determining how and why. I reported what I saw (period).

110 MPH in a Taurus wagon, how do you spell exaggeration :rolleyes:... When talking to 911 operators just stick to the facts, keep cool and minimize (zeroize) your emotional input. This lady may have been passed while dawdling along at 50MPH and when the Smoaks passed her doing 75 it may have seemed like 110, but I seriously doubt they were going that fast with two cars, one being a Taurus wagon. Then she sees money and lets her imagination run wild again.

Anyway, now THP has a report of a robbery and the getaway car doing 110MPH while headed East on I-40 and two of the robbers are in the back seat wearing Halloween dog masks, (sorry I made that last part up :)) , all on the word of a lady who really didn’t see anything but a wallet fly off the roof. So this gets relayed thru a couple dispatch centers and the next thing we have is a felony stop on a family in their Taurus wagon driving home from vacation because they lost their wallet on the highway. Is it the lady's fault? Nope, she's just a civilian who imagines things and embellishes the truth. The problem is that the 911 operator took her at her word without any corroborating information (such as someone actually reporting a robbery).

Anyway, that’s how I “imagine†the events transpired. If the lady 911 caller didn’t elevate this to felony level with her initial 911 call, then someone in LE did elevate it without any further corroborating information. I’m still a little peeved with LE for blindly accepting an anonymous phone call as grounds for probable cause to search my truck when nothing had happened. My guess is that the caller suckered them into putting all their units into an I-5 rest-stop while they were elsewhere. Here’s a hint: White pick-up trucks are a very common vehicle if not the most common vehicle in the U.S. If that’s your only indicator of the suspect vehicle, you ain’t got squat.

Warning: Some of the above is pure supposition on my part
:)
 
What makes these cases so noteworthy, is that rarely, if ever, is corrective action taken. Administrative reassignment, until the thing blows over...how many times have we heard that?

In this case, police "spokesmen" still spouting procedural jibberish. Thank goodness for video...a reasonable person can see how far from the "official version" is the actual event.

Makes one think twice about police reports and PD "official statements", for other cases in which there's no "video", doesn't it?

DaveB's conclusions on the implications of "police state" mentality, are right on target, I'm sorry to say.
 
A buddy of mine got a federal badge job and went through FLETC. Upon his return I asked him if he had noticed much "Us vs. Them" attitude while there. He thought for a moment, sorta puzzled at first, and then said, "Well, yeah. Yeah, there really was, come to think of it."

I dunno. What with the cop shows on TV and the various interactions between feds and locals, some guys lose sight of reality...

Demise, I rode with the first-ever Buddy Patrol deal with Austin PD in 1970. I'm not "surprised"; I saw a lot of it. What rips me out of the frame is that some twerp can be so obviously in the wrong that there's no doubt, but a bunch of bystanders start in yowling all manner of insults and BS...Some of the twerp-natter reminds me of an old Richard Pryor "bit" of the kid to his daddy, "I wasn't running in the house! It just sorta looked like I was running!"

:), Art
 
Cookeville is a town of about 24,000 people so I am guessing they have about 20 or so cops.
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ERRR!!! WRONG!

They list 66 employees according to the local paper. Guessing that means the town uses the interstate as a big revenue generator and is a major speedtrap.

Officer Hall, normally a glorified meter maid, decided killing a dog would generate a little excitment in an otherwise dull job.

Sheriff Andy should just give these guys one bullet so they don't hurt anyone. :p
 
Interesting free speech item. They've closed both threads of the Smoak family incident on the CopTalk forum over at www.glocktalk.com.
If you can't take the heat, close the kitchen.
 
Do you feel better now that you got to vent? -- DeltaElite
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Spare me the condescension, please.

You claim to be a peace officer. Where do you work? What do you know of Tennessee Highway Patrol policy and procedure?

Further, where'd you get your training in "dog behavior"? Trained to ID a dog with a three-second exposure before you slaughter it for its "aggressive posture and actions"? Spend some more time with the tape before you offer your "expert" opinion again.

Your interest here seems two-fold:

1. To excuse the inexcusable because it involved a badge-wearer;

2. To insult those of us who disagree with your blind support of a wannabe who was unwanted, out-of-place and out of control.

Officer Goober [can't label him what he deserves and stay within forum guidelines] was the tail-end of a string of patrolmen and cars. Three THP officers on scene means at least three THP cars. Goober and his buddy only added to the roadside congestion.

But there he was, on-scene, carrying his tac-shotgun, after the misguided felony stop and after the "suspects" are cuffed and on the pavement.

He had NO business there...his help was not requested. He turned a horrible mistake into a tragedy for an innocent family, all because he was bored at the local Sonic or Taco Bell or Wendy's and couldn't resist poaching on THP radio traffic. After all, what better way to get your kicks than show up on-scene where you can offer "invaluable support"?:rolleyes:

Here's my advice to amateurs like Officer Goober:

Finish your chili-dog...
 
The LEO mindset that views all interactions with civilians as potentially dangerous: allowing the LEOs to demand compliance, to expect it, and to react with force whenever they don't get the level of submission they expect.

There is a name for LEOs that do not view interactions with citizens as dangerous....DEAD! This, unfortunately, is reality. Interactions between LEOs and civilians can be nothing but potentially dangerous for the LEO. Just as you answering a knock at your door at 2:00 AM should be considered potentially dangerous by you. I think it is stupid for ANYONE to shuffle through life in condition white especially a LEO while in the performance of their duties. That does not mean that the contact needs to be rude or overagressive.

You bet the LEO is going to demand and expect compliance and use force when compliance is not received. As far a I know most LEOs would like to go home at the end of their shift. The bottom line is if I tell someone to do something they are going to do it. This has nothing to do with ego, attitude or a power trip but everything to do with my personal safety. Of course every situation needs to be evaluated and overagression should not be used by the LEO. Obviously there is a difference between a victim/suspect/traffic stop, etc. Also there is a difference between not keeping quite when told to vs. reaching under the seat during a traffic stop.
 
Watch the tape, the dog was coming aggressively towards him
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When my dog is aggressive her tail isn't wagging.

I think part of society's problem is that somewhere along the lines there was a distinction made between LEs and "civilians" news flash LEs are civilians.

It would be interesting to compare and contrast the modern LE mindset and that of the soldiers at Mai Lai.
 
Just saw the video again on "Today" (or whatever the NBC morning show is). From what I can see, them boys skrewed up royally.

I'm not saying that the THP shouldn't have been careful in making the stop initially, but where on Earth did their judgment based on thier powers of observation go? It should have been pretty clear pretty quickly that they had a mom, dad, kid and dog family unit in transit, not a bunch of criminals (and I really have never heard of a car-jacking or armed robbery going down by a 'gang' like that). There were more than enough cops on hand to adequately control the situation, and those present acted with callous disregard for the safety of the animal (which looked just plain happy to be out of the car) and family. "Common sense" alone would suggest that they should have closed the door on the dog to a) keep it out of the confrontation, and b) to keep it out of traffic - what were they thinking? IMO, Ofc. Hall in particular, badly over-reacted.

I know hind-sight is 20/20 and I wasn't there, but based on the videotape, I'm afraid that the taxpayers of TN are going to paying big time for this one. I also wonder, that, if instead of bluster and BS, if the brass had just apologized immediately, might the lawsuits have been avoided.:confused: :eek:
 
The bottom line is if I tell someone to do something they are going to do it. This has nothing to do with ego, attitude or a power trip but everything to do with my personal safety.

I'm not cop, but I've worked closely with rural SOs in the past, so my viewpoint is civilian with a tiny bit of cop.

Sir, your statement above is offensive and counterproductive. Your personal safety is NOT more important than the safety of my family, my neighbors, me, or any other civilian (except to you, your family, and your fellow LEOs).

It is not more important than my Constitutional Rights.

This is not intended to be insulting, but to illustrate why I started this thread in the first place.

For your methods to work properly you need a nation of sheep.

Is that really what you / we want?

db
 
mrat wrote:

"There is a name for LEOs that do not view interactions with citizens as dangerous....DEAD! This, unfortunately, is reality. Interactions between LEOs and civilians can be nothing but potentially dangerous for the LEO. Just as you answering a knock at your door at 2:00 AM should be considered potentially dangerous by you. I think it is stupid for ANYONE to shuffle through life in condition white especially a LEO while in the performance of their duties. That does not mean that the contact needs to be rude or overagressive.

You bet the LEO is going to demand and expect compliance and use force when compliance is not received. As far a I know most LEOs would like to go home at the end of their shift. The bottom line is if I tell someone to do something they are going to do it. This has nothing to do with ego, attitude or a power trip but everything to do with my personal safety. Of course every situation needs to be evaluated and overagression should not be used by the LEO. Obviously there is a difference between a victim/suspect/traffic stop, etc. Also there is a difference between not keeping quite when told to vs. reaching under the seat during a traffic stop.'

After reading this I can't help but think you are a very scary person in some ways mrat.
If your mindset toward "civilians" is really what you state it to be in the above paragraphs you really need to leave LE. If training can be pointed to as the principle functional issue that has modeled your outlook in this way, it is more scary still. Aren't you afraid sooner or later you might make a misjudgement and hurt an innocent person? Or a child for CS?

S-

On another point I recently made a visit with my son's Scout Troop to the local PD. Great tour and very nice people. Superficially you would have had a very positive and confident opinion of the Department, the job they were doing and that "they had their hearts right concerning the public".
A week later the Police Chief asked for a virtual ban on all toy guns unless they were kept on the parents property. It made national news.

The take home lesson was for me was that at the highest levels of the PD they were homing on internal noise. This kind of thinking has to cast a shadow all the way down to the patrolperson on the street. Back to the drawing board!
S-
 
MRAT posted "The bottom line is if I tell someone to do something they are going to do it. "

The Smoak family DID exactly this. Look what it got them.

I've watched the complete tape at The Tennessean website several times. Look at the body language of the THP officers. This was no longer a "high risk" endeavor. Officer Hall saw that too.

I don't think he a "dog killer," I think he's got too short a fuse for any police work. I'll bet he prefers action to thinking.

I wonder what his MMPI looks like. Prior record too. The Smoak family will find out during pre-trial discovery.
 
DaveB,

It may not be what we want, but it's what we've now become for the most part. And if you/I dare to stand up because you're right or because of your rights, you may end up "dead" right. (I'm surprised that PETA hasn't chimed in about the "dog's" rights)

The "Man" with a gun has a little more immediate power available than the man without, no? Be he LEO, Uncle Sam G.I., Joe Homeowner defending the fort or some Gangsta type. Guns make sheep very nervous.

I try to travel among the sheep without alarming them, LEO's often-times need to control the whole flock (or a portion thereof). We need them (Police Agencies), we hire and train them and set them loose with guidelines the likes of which oftentimes severly hamper their ability to enforce ALL of the LAWS our wonderful Legistatures decide we simply must have. 99.99% of the time they/we do fine and life is wonderful. Now and again something BAD happens. Thank God it was only a dog in this case.

The only LEO that make me nervous are the ones with a gun and a "HEAVY" badge. You all know what I mean here.

CZ-75 opined that Sheriff Andy should give them all one bullet. It only took one shotgun shell here to be heard round the 'net.

F4GIB... "Free Speech" did you say? Not here nor on GlockTalk sir. You did supposedly agree to abide by certain rules when posting on a "Private" forum did you not? I know I did. Trying to post your thoughts and concerns without anyone getting their knickers in a twist takes a certain flair. But free speech?

Adios
 
Police have a very tough job.

Depending on where they work, not treating every contact as if they were a violent criminal can get the policeman killed in a big hurry.

That being said the idiot that shot the dog should be fired. How the department will defend probable cause to 12 jurors in the law suit is another question.

We are not talking poor judgement here, we are talking no judgement combined with contempt for a citizen.

The police are militarized in this country and that is wrong.

Exactly how to resolve the current general situation is tough and I don't know the answer.

But I am not a subject, I am an American Citizen.
 
lack of common sense, poor judgement,
whatever you wish to call it, but it seems
to be a big part of our Wally World
mentality that now prevails.:fire:

In this case no shot should have been fired, and again the taxpayer "will "pay.
 
Art:

Demise, I rode with the first-ever Buddy Patrol deal with Austin PD in 1970. I'm not "surprised"; I saw a lot of it. What rips me out of the frame is that some twerp can be so obviously in the wrong that there's no doubt, but a bunch of bystanders start in yowling all manner of insults and BS...Some of the twerp-natter reminds me of an old Richard Pryor "bit" of the kid to his daddy, "I wasn't running in the house! It just sorta looked like I was running!"
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've seen the same thing. Drunk SOB #1 hits Drunk SOB #2 with a bottle, then when the cops show up (I was on a ride-along), all the bystanders start giving my buddy crap because "they're bothers, it's a family matter" and "you're sticking your nose in where it doesn't belong", plus a whole lot of other stuff that I can't post here.

My point is, when you have so much power, you going to take a lot of **** when you use it. Kinda like the USA on the world stage.
 
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