What exactly does Wilson do to their shotguns?

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Rob62

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I have been curious about this for some time. Exactly what does Wilson Combat do to their shotguns to demand a sticker price where it is?

I know all the features that come on these shotguns. But I am specifically asking about any hand fitting or polishing of parts such as action bars, inside receiver, bolt, etc..

Before anyone here responds with "Why don't you contact Wilson Combat direct and ask them!" I already did that. I e-mailed them this exact question and all that they responded with was, that we do hand fit our parts and ensure the action is smooth. Or words to that effect.

I would really like to hear from someone that has purchased one of their shotguns new. Did it seem that there was any custom work such as polishing done to your SG? Were any parts fitted to closer tolerances than normal? Or did it seem like a bunch of stuff was just attached to a basic 870 Express? (Which is my believe, possibly wrong here and that’s why I am asking). Was the forcing cone lengthened? Backbored?

FWIW – I have seen and “played” with a grand total of one Wilson Combat shotguns. That was a fairly used one, which I am not sure would have shown anything different from a same condition factory stock gun with the exception of branded Wilson parts attached such as their oversize safety, ghost ring sights, mag. extension, etc.

Regards,
Rob
 
did it seem like a bunch of stuff was just attached to a basic 870 Express? (Which is my believe, possibly wrong here and that’s why I am asking).
====================================================

Far as I can tell, you got it right...

lpl/nc
 
It has their fancy parkerizing (not called that, their finish), and they are lightly smithed, they do run very smooth.
The killer for me is that they are built on an express frame instead of a Wingmaster frame
silly and makes it harder to justify.

I have an original Scattergun Technologies (pre-Wilson) 870 and it's just one slick piece of 870. It just runs like butter and it's built on a wingmater frame.
 
Other than their logo you mean?

My local gun shop has one, at that price, he may have it for quite a while. Nice shotgun, good parkerizing job, smooth action, new sights... but not _that_ much better than the stock shotty it was based on.
 
It's like asking what is the difference between Lexus and Toyota.

Nothing but marketing and stroking of egos.
 
I don't think this is fair
I do think Wilson is somewhat overpriced
But have you had any gunsmithing done to anything?
it's VERY expensive for minimal change.
I have a couple smithed guns and well, they are more than double the price of a brand new version. Are they twice as good? no, probably 10 to 30% better, but that's what it costs.
When you buy a Wilson you're getting a pre-smithed 870 Express.
You have to decide if that is worthwhile.
For some people it is, for some people it isn't. But it's not fair to bash them because it's expensive.
Price a yotz-bonitz 870 sometime and then come talk.
 
Scattergun Technologies - Used to be Scattergun Technologies in the OLD days, an independent company and did a really nice job on Shotguns.
I mean they had quality folks doing gunsmithing , understood chambers, forcing cones, bore diameters, choke constrictions, and all about smooth triggers, and RELIABLE smooth feeding, extracting, shooting shotguns.

Scattergun Technologies was bought out, the new owners now send you the ubertacktickle safety off the gun, not installed, but someone else can put it for you...

...but you can this Teck-noglogized Skatter-gun to the person putting the ubertackticle safety on in a kewl logo'd case, and tell 'em about the "free" video tape ya got ...

Used to be one heckuva of Ruger gunsmith at the "company" that bought out Scattergun Tech too. He is gone, but he KNEW the Ruger wheelgun , and he was a REAL gunsmith. He was not a Parts-Changer.

Big difference in being a gunsmith and being a parts-changer.
 
BozemanMT - I am confused about some of your comments. In one you say about Wilson 870's, "they are lightly smithed". In another you say "When you buy a Wilson you're getting a pre-smithed 870 Express."

Can you clarify this? If they are lightly smithed as you say. What exactly is it that Wilson does? Since you actually own one I would really appreciate your comments. I understand that you said that your gun is very smooth. But what exactly did Wilson do to get it this way - that was the whole purpose of my post in the first place to find this out. Was there any polishing of moving contact surfaces, trigger job, lengthening forcing cone, etc?

I am beginning to think that I was right in my initial impression that all Wilson really does is put aftermarket parts on basic guns and that's about it. OK, and also puts some type of a proprietary finish on them. Nothing wrong with that. But for the prices they charge it seems like something truly worthy of the name gunsmithing should be done to them. Maybe drilling and tapping 2 holes in the receiver for the rear (ghost ring) sight counts - I don't know. But what about the guns that don't come with GR sights.

I hope I am not comming accross as tryign to bash Wilson. I am not. I am just wondering what they do to justify the high prices of their guns.

In their marketing and sales pitches it comes accross at least to me, that there is some real custom work, i.e. gunsmithing, done to their shotguns. That is what I am trying to understand.

Regards,
Rob
 
Bottom line is, Wilson takes an ordinary Express gun and does some light polishing on internals to smooth the action up and remove most burrs that are left on the Express at the factory.

Since Remington intends the Express to be a "budget gun" that can compete with the cheaper to make Mossberg, Remington dispenses with most of the exterior polishing the better guns get.
This means the Express exterior finish shows a lot of machine marks and the internal surfaces have some burrs that don't interfere with operation, but make the action a little rough until it's broken in.

Wilson simply removes the factory bluing and does some burr removal on the interior . They then apply a new finish.
After that, they install their options like magazine extensions, ghost ring sight, etc.

My opinion is, the Wilson is over-priced for the amount of work done, with the given that custom gunsmith's don't work for minimum wage, and what they do is good work.

My personal feeling is, why spend MORE money for what under the fluff and accessories is an Express gun, when for LESS money you can get the very best there is..... A Remington Police gun.

Factory Police models can be bought with most of the options Wilson offer, and is a much smoother, better finished gun with upgrades even the Wilson guns don't have.
The best part is, depending on the model you choose, the factory Police guns cost LESS than the Wilson Express.
 
its easy, they add some very inexpensive parts, fill the action with some sort of buffing compound or lapping slurry, run the action about 50 times to smooth everything up, give it a new finish and quintuple the price.

what you get a 870 express, (same as a wingmaster in all manners except level of ext polish, which if you are going to bead blast it and park it, it not really important.) they add a jumbo safety, ( about 30 bucks retail at midway or brownells) a fancy set of lighted sights (about a 100 bucks retail,) a new follower, ($5?) a stainless mag spring with extension, ($40) and a sling and swivels, ($15 ) for 1200 bucks. So go to wally world, buy a synthetic express, add the swat tube, a new front sight and a sling and swivel set and keep the other $900 bucks for ammo and training.

I used to have some gun work done by a guy who considered a master of the 870 and 1100, along with the A5. He was getting this stuff or its predecessor
(http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Q9KzYsPDdaP0I8yizeIDwjw0C_IcFQEAH1ms
yo!PC_7_0_1LUG_node=GS1YTWTDFTgs&PC_7_0_1LUG_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&
PC_7_0_1LUG_vroot=GSLPLPKL4Xge&PC_7_0_1LUG_bgel=TF74MHW2DRbl&
PC_7_0_1LUG_gvel=GSRKGRPJV4gl)
and just would fill the action up and then sit there watching andy griffith reruns while working the action. after a half hour or so, he would dump the left over in the jug and hose out the interior of the action in the parts cleaner. This constituted a 120 dollar action job on the shotguns, and he NEVER got a complaint that he had not made it feel better. Once polished up this way, and re-oiled, the resulting action felt like hot butter on glass.
 
If Wilson does any polishing on their shotguns, that must be a new policy. I've had some of their shotguns in the past and they had NO polishing, NO "slicking up", NO "light smithing", NO trigger work. (This is straight from several horse's mouths at Wilson, one of which I spoke to regularly, before he was killed.)

They simply take an 870 Express, add their accessories and then refinish it. Express gun... Express barrel... Express plastic trigger guard... Express "J" lock...

It's still a good shotgun, but expensive for what it is. There is nothing wrong with the end product, but for that price, I want a Police or Wingmaster base gun.

You do get a lifetime warranty with the gun, but nothing breaks on them, anyway.
 
Since you actually own one I would really appreciate your comments

I don't own one
I did manage to pick up an ORIGINAL Scattergun Technologies 870 with a Vang Comp barrel. Before Wilson bought them.
now that's a 870.

I think the Wilson 870 is nice.
I think it's overpriced.
 
I don't think overpriced quite says it all....

I agree. While Wilson has a deserved reputation for work on 1911's, this thing with the shotguns and ARs borders on dishonest in my opinion.

This is all marketing and brand recognition. The actual work that goes into these things is minimal at best.

You are paying for the name and perceived value that brings. There might be some small advantage in warranty as well, but thats minimal compared to what you are paying.

I spent a good long time looking at a Wilson AR and I just can't see that they actually DID anything to the rifle other than refinish the thing and add a few aftermarket parts.
 
An out of the box 870 is a marvelous weapon in trained hands. The tweaks can add a little. More training and BA/UU/R can add a lot.

Little that Wilson does cannot be done by an owner. Polishing the action can be done as written up in the Stickies or just by running a few thousand rounds through a new 870.

A couple of mine are butter smooth. 10K rounds and more will do that.

Number 6 has some catching up to do, coming along nicely.
 
I saw a wilson 870 field stripped at a class and looked carefully for any signs of polishing or beveling. Could not find any! Now on my old ROBAR 870 and other real smithed 870s you can see the bottom edge of the bolt, the bolt carrier beveled and polished into a slight guide groove. Also the lower ramp on the barrel is turned into a real ramp and the edges of the chamber obviously radiused. The triggers are usually 'tuned' on REAL gunsmithed guns, as in disassembled and hammer , and sear honed ect. Some parts are HARD chromed, which really is the way to go. Doing this to a Wingmaster or 870P doesn't cost anymore than the Wilson really. They could do it cheaper on a large scale but prefer to put the money into the 'name' which some worship as gospel, until their front sights take off in the middle of a class or their unclamped mag extension gets knocked going around obstacles or going prone and launches down range:neener:
 
pete f, what's the stuff the guy was using on the actions? I just got the generic main page for the company instead of an individual product when I put in that URL.

Thaks
 
Thanks for all the responses.

pete f - when you say they (Wilson) "fill the action with some sort of buffing compound or lapping slurry, run the action about 50 times to smooth everything up". How do you know this. Did someone tell you this or have you seen, or do you own, a new Wilson SG that showed evidence of having this done?

From all the posts here and other things I have read in the past it seems clear, at least to me, that Wilson does not do anything to "slick up" the action or trigger, such as polishing. I really wish Wilson would have been clearer in explaining exactly what they do in reference to this when I e mailed them.

Their being vague and ambiguous is what got me to thinking that nothing actually gets done. Except the addition of their custom parts. Again nothing wrong with that 870's are GREAT guns as they come from the factory. Adding all the neat parts that are on Wilson guns certainly improves their versatility.

Rob
 
is the express the same as a wingmaster? I heard that the barrels werent interchangable.

Jesse
 
The basic Wingmaster and Express are the same gun, except the Express uses a different magazine spring and magazine cap retention system.

You can use either barrels on the guns, but the Express magazine cap will not be retained properly and may vibrate loose.

Here's the basic differences between a Wingmaster, a Police, and an Express model:
======================================================
The Wingmaster and Police are the premium "Cadillac" versions.

The Express is Remington's "budget" gun, made to compete with the cheaper to make Winchester and Mossberg guns.

How Remington lowered the price on the Express was to reduce hand labor to a bare minimum, and to eliminate much of the polishing and de-burring the better quality Wingmaster and Police guns get.

The Express is basically the same forged and milled steel receiver and heavy-duty internals gun the better 870's are, just in a rougher, less well finished form with plastic and MIM parts.

The Express Model has:
A plastic trigger group.
The dimples in the mag tube and the new style plastic magazine retention system, EXCEPT on the extended magazine version, which does NOT have the dimples.
A rougher finish inside and outside, with machine marks and some burrs left.
A rougher, bead blasted blue job.
A less polished bore.
A two piece barrel. (not 100% sure about this)
Hardwood or synthetic stock, with a sporting-length fore end, pressed-in checkering and a "varnish" type finish.
The Defense version has 18", Cylinder bore barrel, with a bead sight.
Some Metal Injection Molded (MIM) parts, like the extractor.
Has the locking safety button.

The Wingmaster has:
An aluminum trigger group.
The old style magazine retention system.
A much smoother finish inside and out, no machine marks or burrs.
The Wingmaster gun receives a higher level of inspection and finishing.
A fine, commercial polished blue finish.
A polished bore.
A one piece barrel.
Walnut stocks with the famous "Bowling Pin" finish in gloss or satin. and better checkering.
Wide choices in barrel lengths and choke options.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.
The Wingmaster is the full top-of-the-line commercial Remington pump gun, and is priced accordingly.

The 870 Police has:
An aluminum trigger group.
The old style magazine retention system.
A much smoother finish inside and out, no machine marks or burrs.
The Police gun receives a higher level of inspection and finishing.
A military-grade parkerized finish.
A polished bore.
A one piece barrel.
Walnut or synthetic stock, with a short police-length fore end.
The Remington “R3” super recoil pad that reduces felt recoil by 30%.
Choices in different stocks, including Speed-feed, and others.
18" to 20" improved cylinder barrel, with a wide choice in sights, including rifle, ghost ring, and luminous.
Heavy-duty magazine spring.
Heavy-duty trigger-sear spring.
Sling swivel mounts.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.

The Express is a "bottom of the line" budget gun, the Wingmaster is a "top of the line" sporting gun, the Police is the top-of-the-line in defense guns.
The 870's are generally considered to be the finest quality pump gun made.
======================================================
Here's what the Remington factory says about the Police gun:

REMINGTON ARMS COMPANY, LE DIVISION
Important differences between Remington 870 Police and 870 Express shotguns
The 870 Express has been an important part of Remington’s offering to the sporting market.
It was designed to meet a price point in the commercial market while still providing classic 870 functionality.
All of Remington’s 870’s have interchangeable parts, even if they have cosmetic differences.
It is also important to note that many manufacturers use the 870 Express platform for their Police / Combat models.
Without exception, every manufacturer who utilizes our 870 platform serves to upgrade their system to a more efficient, street worthy platform.
While the 870 Express is still an 870, the best pump shotgun on the market, there are some very important cosmetic and functional differences between it and the 870 Police.
To our customers in Law Enforcement, Military, Corrections, and Security, whose lives depend upon the unfailing performance of Remington shotguns, the Police modifications are of paramount importance. Synopses of the variances are provided below.

• 870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.

• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY. This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.

• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure top quality and functionality.

• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.

• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5 and 8 lbs.

• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.

• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.

• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police shotgun vehicle racks.

• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.

• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.

• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.

• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a compressed metal housing.

• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.

• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.

• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast which are utilized on the Express models.
 
There is nothing Wilson makes that interests me in the least. Have you seen their new polymer gun? Sheer name-brand market whoring. Seriously.

Don't confuse Wilson Combat with Wilson Tactical, however. WT is run by Wilson's son, and there are apparently good reasons why the two are not on good terms. I am really not trying to bash Bill Wilson here, but I really think they have gotten away from what made them famous. I wouldn't even put Wilson Combat in my top ten 1911 smiths based on what I have heard. Bang for your buck is really just not there.
 
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