What gives?? AP ammo...

[Ian]

I was looking into the pulled .30 cal AP bullets that are for sale here and there, and thinking that it'd be cool to load them into .308 Winchester cartridges for my scout rifle. But I took a look at the ATF info on AP ammo, and it's illegal. But .30-06 M2 (AP) ammo is fine. What? You can have .30-06, but not .308? Do they just blindfold a guy and have him pick rules at random or something?

 

[MicroBalrog]

Apparently, all pistol AP ammo is illegal. According to ATF, "pistol ammo" is any caliber in which a pistol was ever made.:banghead:
However, they did not ban .50 AP, even though there is an XP-100 in that caliber.

 

[Ian]

Yeah, that's what I had though. But they also specifically exempted .223 SS109. What could possibly be seen as an eviler pistol than those AR pistol monstrocities? And they specifically mention M61 .308 AP as being prohibited.

Blarg! This makes no sense! Yeah, I know none of their rules really do, but this affects me personally right now. The only thing that's keeping me from being really torqued is that apparently the bullets are too long to be stabilized by the standard 1:12" .308 barrel.

 

[rick_reno]

The AP ammo rules are posted and explained here

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG1.html

If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
It is: ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10 FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo for DD's. The FFL's cost $1000 a year.

 

[SquirrelNuts]

There is a list of exceptions to the AP...roughly seven or so specific rounds.

SS-109 is one of them, and so is M2AP (30-06). If you load the 163 gr. bullet from M2AP into a .308 cartridge, then you no longer have M2AP. It would be kind of like pulling SS-109 and using it with a sabot in 30-06, and you would have a 4,080 FPS AP round.

Now here is the kicker. I do not even know for 100% if what I just wrote is correct due to symantics.

It is illegal to MAKE AP rounds, but it does not specify ASSEMBLING AP rounds. You are not technically making anything new, you are assembling something new. Hard to say. I would just say load up the .308 and shoot it. Tumble the bullets before you load them to make them look new and get rid of the black paint. Looks like FMJ to me.

-SquirrelNuts

 

[SquirrelNuts]

Do they just blindfold a guy and have him pick rules at random or something?

One explanation I have heard for this is they ban whatever has been used in a crime in a handgun. Apparently, there is a case where a man used a TC or something similar in .308 to commit a crime. We all have him to thank.

-SquirrelNuts

 

[rick_reno]

AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to "willfully" transfer AP ammo.

From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above into
completed rounds does not constitute "making" AP ammo; making the bullets themselves does.

Based on the above, which I found here

http://www 2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/ap_ammo.txt

you might be ok loading AP bullets.

The ATF refers to "manufacture of armor piercing ammunition" -
here http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/other.htm

"Manufacture or importation of armor piercing ammunition and the sale of such ammunition by manufacturers and importers, 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(7) and (8);"

Does anyone know, is loading ammunition for your own use in your garage defined as "manufacture"?

I'd call them and ask before ordering any of those bullets.

 

[SquirrelNuts]

You are a reloader, not a remanufacturer.

-SquirrelNuts

 

[Ian]

Well, the info I'm going from (same as you found, rick_reno) is here:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm

List of Armor Piercing Ammunition
...

7.62mm NATO AP (Identified by black coloring in the bullet tip. This ammunition is used by various NATO countries. The U.S. military designation is M61 AP)

7.62mm NATO SLAP (identified by projectile having a plastic sabot around a hard penetrator. The penetrator protrudes above the sabot and is similar in appearance to a Remington accelerator cartridge)

...

7.62x39mm with steel core. (NOTE: these projectiles have a steel core. Projectiles having a lead core with steel jacket or steel case are not armor piercing)

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING CARTRIDGES HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION:

5.56MM (.223) SS109 and M855 Ammunition, Identified by a green coating on the projectile tip.

U.S. .30-06 M2 AP, Identified by a black coating on the projectile tip.

The though just crossed my mind...is it just surplus NATO-spec M61 ammo that is prohibited? If I use different brass and a different powder, might that no longer be prohibited?

My biggest concern is not making this rifle chow for myself, but selling some to friends who are interested. I would be very hesitant to endanger them if it's illegal.

Ugh. I think an anonymous phone call to the local goon squad is in order.

 

[rick_reno]

I wouldn't get into the business of making ammo and selling it to friends. That could move you from a "reloader" to a "manufacturer" which would be a problem without the proper license. The liability of selling ammo could be a problem down the road too.

If you call ATF, let us know what they say.

 

[Sodbuster]

is it just surplus NATO-spec M61 ammo that is prohibited?

It wasn't when I purchased my M61 at a gunshow from a seller who didn't hold a FFL. Little over a year ago, don't know if the law has changed.

 

[Mute]

Silly man! Don't you know that ammunition can't penetrate body armor until the ATF actually says out loud that it is indeed AP. Has to do with some kind of powerful government mojo.

 

[Ian]

Well, I called the local head ATF thug. He didn't know what "manufacture" means in their regs. Said I have to call their head office in DC to find out.