Of any readily available civilian weapon? Is it a 12 gauge with slugs? Or is it some kind of rifle? I am talking about for two legged strung out on dope hulks to the biggest bear in NA, all inside of 50 yards? If you really wanted to knock em down and make em stay down, what would you use?
What gives you THE most knock-down power
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Nathaniel Firethorn
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Lincoln Navigator.
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Clipper
Member
Well, since a Navigator is hard to aim indoors...
People and critters require two different approaches...
I'd say the most effective for 2-legged varmints would probably be a short-barreled 12ga shooting 000 buck. I don't like slugs for people due to overpenetration concerns. As for handguns, I'm a big & slow believer....45ACP, .44spec...
For 4-legged types, I'd still go with buckshot in that scattergun, with maybe a slug in the chamber. And since you seem to be including the big Grizzlies, I'd drop the .357 & .41mags that would suffice for black bears and recommend a minimum of .44mag and up (energy-wise) in a handgun. I'd also look into a short, powerful close-range rifle like the Marlin lever actions in calibers like .444, 45/70 and that new big bore (.450 Marlin?). They carry enough energy to take the edge off a bear's appetite...
People and critters require two different approaches...
I'd say the most effective for 2-legged varmints would probably be a short-barreled 12ga shooting 000 buck. I don't like slugs for people due to overpenetration concerns. As for handguns, I'm a big & slow believer....45ACP, .44spec...
For 4-legged types, I'd still go with buckshot in that scattergun, with maybe a slug in the chamber. And since you seem to be including the big Grizzlies, I'd drop the .357 & .41mags that would suffice for black bears and recommend a minimum of .44mag and up (energy-wise) in a handgun. I'd also look into a short, powerful close-range rifle like the Marlin lever actions in calibers like .444, 45/70 and that new big bore (.450 Marlin?). They carry enough energy to take the edge off a bear's appetite...
XavierBreath
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Cement Truck
Pistol Toter
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Kentucky, Apparently there is no mystical, magical, silver bullet, gauge or caliber; each has it's trade offs, one or another. Certianly there are some that are better than others. I carry a .45 acp with 230gr jacketed hollow points or a snub nose .357 with 125gr jacketed hollow points. I own a 12 ga pump that is loaded with 2 3/4" 00 buck. I feel that is enough for my personal protection. I hunt small game with a .22lr single shot or a .410 bolt action and thats all I need. I'm not going bear or bore hunting but if I were I would want something considerably more powerful than the above, something with a fair sized well developing projectile, bumping along at a pretty good clip, delivering lots and lots of energy. What would I use? I don't know, but a 30-06 or .308 or .300 mag, something like that. I know that there are lots of fellows that bear and bore hunt and that's great for them, but..., both are down right dangerious and I just have never had the desire to go 8 rounds with either, call me chicken if you want. The answer to your question is not simple and is largely objective. The intended use, hand held or shoulder fired but the bottom line is placing the projectile in a critical area that gives the required results. Seldomly will one firearm give across the board results.
Regards P.T.
Regards P.T.
Preacherman
Member
There have been many discussions of "stopping power" or "knock-down power" on THR - use the Search function to look for them. However, the basic answer to your question is that there is no such thing as "stopping power".
There are simply too many factors affecting any round's performance. To name just a few:
1. Resistance of the target. A hopped-up drug-user won't feel pain or shock in the same way as a "normal" person. An animal high on adrenaline will react very differently to the same bullet strike as one that's peacefully lying down, or grazing, and not expecting trouble.
2. Transfer of energy. The most powerful round in the world won't do much good if it can't transfer its energy to the target. A super-duper-felon-stopper-Magnum-blaster round that simply punches a neat hole through the target and goes on its way rejoicing won't do much to stop that target.
3. Bullet placement. A central nervous system (CNS) hit - i.e. brain or spinal cord - will usually stop matters right there. A circulatory system hit will do so after enough blood loss has occurred to affect the brain. Hits anywhere else won't necessarily incapacitate.
4. Local conditions. In extreme cold, vasoconstriction reduces blood loss significantly, so that a victim may take much longer to lose enough blood to stop being a threat. In warm weather, this doesn't apply. Also, heavy winter clothing (or fur) may impede a bullet's passage, or its ability to expand - in summer, lighter clothing or fur won't do the same.
There are many other factors involved - these are just a few.
My personal choice for something to impart as much shock as possible would be a Brenneke 12ga. rifled slug against a bear or something like that, or a .45-70 Garrett Hammerhead, or a good rifle in .375 H&H Magnum or larger round. Against a two-legged target, the slug will still do a good job. Outside that, any decent expanding round in .308/7.62x51mm., 7.62x39mm., or .223/5.56x45mm. should do. Accurate shot placement is still essential.
Bear in mind that for any target, multiple hits are the rule, rather than the exception, unless you hit the CNS right off the bat. Never rely on one round to do the job.
There are simply too many factors affecting any round's performance. To name just a few:
1. Resistance of the target. A hopped-up drug-user won't feel pain or shock in the same way as a "normal" person. An animal high on adrenaline will react very differently to the same bullet strike as one that's peacefully lying down, or grazing, and not expecting trouble.
2. Transfer of energy. The most powerful round in the world won't do much good if it can't transfer its energy to the target. A super-duper-felon-stopper-Magnum-blaster round that simply punches a neat hole through the target and goes on its way rejoicing won't do much to stop that target.
3. Bullet placement. A central nervous system (CNS) hit - i.e. brain or spinal cord - will usually stop matters right there. A circulatory system hit will do so after enough blood loss has occurred to affect the brain. Hits anywhere else won't necessarily incapacitate.
4. Local conditions. In extreme cold, vasoconstriction reduces blood loss significantly, so that a victim may take much longer to lose enough blood to stop being a threat. In warm weather, this doesn't apply. Also, heavy winter clothing (or fur) may impede a bullet's passage, or its ability to expand - in summer, lighter clothing or fur won't do the same.
There are many other factors involved - these are just a few.
My personal choice for something to impart as much shock as possible would be a Brenneke 12ga. rifled slug against a bear or something like that, or a .45-70 Garrett Hammerhead, or a good rifle in .375 H&H Magnum or larger round. Against a two-legged target, the slug will still do a good job. Outside that, any decent expanding round in .308/7.62x51mm., 7.62x39mm., or .223/5.56x45mm. should do. Accurate shot placement is still essential.
Bear in mind that for any target, multiple hits are the rule, rather than the exception, unless you hit the CNS right off the bat. Never rely on one round to do the job.
Jamie C.
Member
What gives you THE most knock-down power:
Y'know, those ACME anvils seem to do a helluva number on coyotes.... can't say how they'd do on bears though... Would undoubtedly ruin the average crack-heads day, however.
Still, failing a tall structure to drop one off of, I'd have to go with the 12 ga. with a tube full of slugs. Would probably do a "home hollow-point" job on 'em first though....
J.C.
Y'know, those ACME anvils seem to do a helluva number on coyotes.... can't say how they'd do on bears though... Would undoubtedly ruin the average crack-heads day, however.
Still, failing a tall structure to drop one off of, I'd have to go with the 12 ga. with a tube full of slugs. Would probably do a "home hollow-point" job on 'em first though....
J.C.
chopinbloc
Member
12 pounder.
Malone LaVeigh
Member
"Stopping" power has enough problems, but it wasn't the question. "Knock-down" power in particular is a myth bred in numberless gunstores, movies and playgrounds across the country. The physics just don't work, hence all of the humourous posts that did a much better job than I of making the point.
JesseJames
Member
Ah yes, the myth of knock-down power.
Just get one of those scissor spring loaded boxing gloves.
Just get one of those scissor spring loaded boxing gloves.
GregGry
Member
I say a fully loaded mack dumptruck. Your aim wouldn't have to be precise, you could even aim the hood ornimanet towards the left or right of the perp, and still take him down. How many pistols can you do that with? 
xring44
Member
You only have to look at what the guides in Alaska pack to follow up a wounded Grizzly, or the PH in Africa uses to follow up dangerous thin skined game. A 12 guage shotgun will do the trick, slugs at a distance of 50 yards or more, 00 buckshot at closer range. Awesome stopping power.
armoredman
Member
This is why you should get a milsurp rifle...attached pigsticker can be handy when ubermajic bullet works not....
shermacman
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A .22 through the eye socket will do it.
A Barrett .50 rifle through the Bad Guy's love handles won't even slow him down.
A Barrett .50 rifle through the Bad Guy's love handles won't even slow him down.
loadedround
Member
As far as knock down power is concerned, I'd have to nominate my old college room mate's sweat socks...one whiff and they would knock down anything. They got banned in Boston and NYC. LOL
"A Barrett .50 rifle through the Bad Guy's love handles won't even slow him down"
dude have you ever been prarie dog hunting? they explode even with a .22hornet!!! thats what would happen to fattie. there is so much energy with a 600 grain pill going 3500 fps it creates a massive air cavity and would rip him in half.
dude have you ever been prarie dog hunting? they explode even with a .22hornet!!! thats what would happen to fattie. there is so much energy with a 600 grain pill going 3500 fps it creates a massive air cavity and would rip him in half.
gbran
Member
When I went to Alaska, my guide (and several others) carried a 12 ga pump. 1st round was buckshot (to the face) folowed by slugs. This I'm told is fairly successful on bear, so I suppose it should work on 2 legged critters too.
For a handgun to work on both big critters and people, you gotta look at the biggest threat. Big hardcast bullets for the critters and expanding bullets for people. You could compromise with an XTP type bullet if you had to protect against both.
For a handgun to work on both big critters and people, you gotta look at the biggest threat. Big hardcast bullets for the critters and expanding bullets for people. You could compromise with an XTP type bullet if you had to protect against both.
Tactical nuke would beat the cement truck, hands down, for most knock-down power.
In the realm of firearms, it is all really based on what you can handle.
Top of the heap would be rifles chambered in heavy machinegun rounds, ala the barrett in .50 BMG
Next would be the superultramags using african game sized, things like 460 weatherby, 10.57 meteor, 500 A-Square, etc. next would be these same cases topped with 33-38 caliber bullets, Then I suppose the older, less high velocity african big game loads like 416 rigby and the like.
Of course, the number of people who can handle such a heavy recoiling firearm are pretty few and far between. Step down a notch to the 300 ultramags and the like, you still have one hell of a recoiling load, even the venerable 338 gives one solid kick. Now, the 338 is going to be excellent moose and grizzly medicine, and will sure as hell take any fight out of a 2 legged opponent if you place the shot on his torso, no matter how hopped up on dope or religion he is.
Then finally you get into your average true rifle loadings, things like 30-06, 8mm mauser, 303, etc, etc, and you can basically do this all the way down to 22 short and cb caps.
Handguns are pretty much the same thing, as far as standard production models, 500 S&W tops the chart, with such things as teh 50AE, 480 ruger, 454 casull following, but still well outperforming the 44 mag, Then I suppose-41 mag/10mm, -357/45acp, -40 S&W -9mm --38 specuial -380acp-32 H&R mag-32acp-25/22LR with lots of unmentioned ones in there somewhere too.
It all depends on who much gun you can handle. A 500 S&W too big to carry won't do you any good, and a 44 mag that recoils so much you cannot hit isn't going to be worth a damned, whereas a .22LR that yuo can hit with is going to be worht at least something.
In the realm of firearms, it is all really based on what you can handle.
Top of the heap would be rifles chambered in heavy machinegun rounds, ala the barrett in .50 BMG
Next would be the superultramags using african game sized, things like 460 weatherby, 10.57 meteor, 500 A-Square, etc. next would be these same cases topped with 33-38 caliber bullets, Then I suppose the older, less high velocity african big game loads like 416 rigby and the like.
Of course, the number of people who can handle such a heavy recoiling firearm are pretty few and far between. Step down a notch to the 300 ultramags and the like, you still have one hell of a recoiling load, even the venerable 338 gives one solid kick. Now, the 338 is going to be excellent moose and grizzly medicine, and will sure as hell take any fight out of a 2 legged opponent if you place the shot on his torso, no matter how hopped up on dope or religion he is.
Then finally you get into your average true rifle loadings, things like 30-06, 8mm mauser, 303, etc, etc, and you can basically do this all the way down to 22 short and cb caps.
Handguns are pretty much the same thing, as far as standard production models, 500 S&W tops the chart, with such things as teh 50AE, 480 ruger, 454 casull following, but still well outperforming the 44 mag, Then I suppose-41 mag/10mm, -357/45acp, -40 S&W -9mm --38 specuial -380acp-32 H&R mag-32acp-25/22LR with lots of unmentioned ones in there somewhere too.
It all depends on who much gun you can handle. A 500 S&W too big to carry won't do you any good, and a 44 mag that recoils so much you cannot hit isn't going to be worth a damned, whereas a .22LR that yuo can hit with is going to be worht at least something.
browningguy
Member
If it's one gun for everything, and they absolutely have to stay down my 458 Win works a treat with 500 gr. softpoints. Moveing down in power a little my .50 Beowulf AR with 11 in the mag would be a decent choice (325 gr. slug at 1900 FPS). But also a 300 Mag, or 30-06 would probably do ok. For the big bears going after them with just a handgun seems to be not the brightest idea.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
The .44 magnum is the most gun I can shoot quickly and accurately.
B
boofus
Guest
The 3 leading causes of death in the United States are:
1. Heart Disease
2. Chuck Norris
3. Cancer
I'd say Chuck Norris has plenty of knockdown power.
1. Heart Disease
2. Chuck Norris
3. Cancer
I'd say Chuck Norris has plenty of knockdown power.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
I'll take a 12 ga. Remington 870 with a barrel 18- 21" long, and loaded with 00 buck and Brenneke slugs for the first eventuality. Were I going where there were serious bears like grizzlies I believe I'd rather take along the .45-70 Marlin, after I secured the proper ammunition from Garrett for it. The 305 gr. 'government loads' I have now seem a little anemic for that use.
lpl/nc
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