DG lever guns?
Isn't the .405 Winchester/Browning 1895 model DG legal?
Isn't the .405 Winchester/Browning 1895 model DG legal?
What I like in a dangerous game rifle.
- Thread starter H&Hhunter
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goalie
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Actually, I made the post, but I did not say that the PH would have a bigger gun. That part may have been said by someone other than me. (I did say I would like the PH's gun to be controlled round feed, but to be honest, it wouldn't really make that big of a difference to my decision to hunt something that bites) What I did say was that dangerous game has been hunted with single-shot muzzle loaders, and that I, as someone who saw fit to climb Half-Dome and El Capitain for fun, had no problem in hunting with a Remington 700 action.
OP
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M&M,
Here goes,
The major problem with this article is who sponored it. Garrett. They are guilty of some pretty outrageous propoganda concerening the .45-70. Just as Weatherby was guilty of pushing the velocity kills agenda in the past Garrett is the anti velocity agenda. Why? Because they are trying to sell .45-70 ammo that's why.
Quite simply the reason we haven't seen African hunters turning in their Nitro Expresses and .458Lotts by the droves to go buy .45-70's is that years of experience have taught us that a 500gr bullet producing about 5000Ftlbs of energy (that works out to around 2100-2200 fps) is just the right combination of penetration and striking force required to deal with thick skinned DG.
I have seen a 500gr solid from a .458lott hit a buffalo's pelvis smash it then proceed to penetrate all the way into the neck skin on a running away buff. A freind of mine shot did a frontal brain shot on a bull elephant with his .450 Rigby the bullet went through the bulls skull through the neck muscles and he found the bullet lodged in the skin above the bulls hind leg.Bopth of these circumstances prove that wet news paper may not be indicitive of true performance on real live animals.
I seriously doubt that a .45-70 at 1500fps can even closely compare after hitting some serious bone. Wet newspapers beware however as we have just discovered the newest hydrovolemicpapirus stopper.
The very hottest .45-70 loads generate about 3500FtLbs of energy. Which may or may not have any affect on during a charge situation if the animal isn't brained or spined. I'm not saying that the .45-70 doesn't penetrate well it does. While penetration is important there is more to it than just that. lets take that same scenario and add in the expanding bullet. In that case I think you'll find some drastic differences. Their is simply no comparison, the faster heavy rifles up to a point are far more effective. The magic point seems to decrease after about 2300 fps. Anything faster in the .458 500gr load tends to give eradic bullet path after penetration.
Vince Lupo who is Garretts .45-70 poster child went over and took the dangerous 7(elephant,buffalo, rhino, hippo, croc, leopard and lion) in one hunt with a .45-70. He claims that of the 7, 4 of them developed into a full charge situation........AHHHHhhhhh *****. Ezcuse me...... In anycase if that is the case, if he actually was forced to stop 4 frontal charges I'd say he was having some major problems with his chioce of gun, wouldn't you? Not to mention his PH must have done alot of running when he should have been shooting. Maybe his name was Wayne and he drove a Geo Metro and was an ankle braclet afficiando????
And last but not least least two weeks ago when my buddy Tim shot his big hog down in Texas my other buddy Ashley Emerson meet us on the ranch and he had just returned from a major no BS bullet penetration test that was not sponsered by any one manufacturer (imagine that) and he found that the cast core lead bullets were failing at an alarming rate after hitting something solid before going into a stack of wet newspaper. Almost like a gift from the hunting gods he was able to shoot a hog with his new Bowen built Blackhawk .44mag using 330gr Garrett Hammer heads. The hog died not doubt about it. But the bullet or i should say both halves of it were found in the skin of the off shoulder. The ole hammer head split in half on a little ole 200lb ferral hog. \
How do you feel about using cast core lead bullets on serious stuff?
I won't do it.
Give me a monlithic solid 500gr .475 or .458 at around 2150 or so and I'll be happy and feel comfortable because I know it works.
All of you in the .45-70 mafia are cleared to proceed as you like. I am just expressing MY opinons and my personal experiences.
Fell free to sherd them at will.
M&M sorry to rant on but you did ask me to....
Here goes,
The major problem with this article is who sponored it. Garrett. They are guilty of some pretty outrageous propoganda concerening the .45-70. Just as Weatherby was guilty of pushing the velocity kills agenda in the past Garrett is the anti velocity agenda. Why? Because they are trying to sell .45-70 ammo that's why.
Quite simply the reason we haven't seen African hunters turning in their Nitro Expresses and .458Lotts by the droves to go buy .45-70's is that years of experience have taught us that a 500gr bullet producing about 5000Ftlbs of energy (that works out to around 2100-2200 fps) is just the right combination of penetration and striking force required to deal with thick skinned DG.
I have seen a 500gr solid from a .458lott hit a buffalo's pelvis smash it then proceed to penetrate all the way into the neck skin on a running away buff. A freind of mine shot did a frontal brain shot on a bull elephant with his .450 Rigby the bullet went through the bulls skull through the neck muscles and he found the bullet lodged in the skin above the bulls hind leg.Bopth of these circumstances prove that wet news paper may not be indicitive of true performance on real live animals.
I seriously doubt that a .45-70 at 1500fps can even closely compare after hitting some serious bone. Wet newspapers beware however as we have just discovered the newest hydrovolemicpapirus stopper.
The very hottest .45-70 loads generate about 3500FtLbs of energy. Which may or may not have any affect on during a charge situation if the animal isn't brained or spined. I'm not saying that the .45-70 doesn't penetrate well it does. While penetration is important there is more to it than just that. lets take that same scenario and add in the expanding bullet. In that case I think you'll find some drastic differences. Their is simply no comparison, the faster heavy rifles up to a point are far more effective. The magic point seems to decrease after about 2300 fps. Anything faster in the .458 500gr load tends to give eradic bullet path after penetration.
Vince Lupo who is Garretts .45-70 poster child went over and took the dangerous 7(elephant,buffalo, rhino, hippo, croc, leopard and lion) in one hunt with a .45-70. He claims that of the 7, 4 of them developed into a full charge situation........AHHHHhhhhh *****. Ezcuse me...... In anycase if that is the case, if he actually was forced to stop 4 frontal charges I'd say he was having some major problems with his chioce of gun, wouldn't you? Not to mention his PH must have done alot of running when he should have been shooting. Maybe his name was Wayne and he drove a Geo Metro and was an ankle braclet afficiando????
And last but not least least two weeks ago when my buddy Tim shot his big hog down in Texas my other buddy Ashley Emerson meet us on the ranch and he had just returned from a major no BS bullet penetration test that was not sponsered by any one manufacturer (imagine that) and he found that the cast core lead bullets were failing at an alarming rate after hitting something solid before going into a stack of wet newspaper. Almost like a gift from the hunting gods he was able to shoot a hog with his new Bowen built Blackhawk .44mag using 330gr Garrett Hammer heads. The hog died not doubt about it. But the bullet or i should say both halves of it were found in the skin of the off shoulder. The ole hammer head split in half on a little ole 200lb ferral hog. \
How do you feel about using cast core lead bullets on serious stuff?
I won't do it.
Give me a monlithic solid 500gr .475 or .458 at around 2150 or so and I'll be happy and feel comfortable because I know it works.
All of you in the .45-70 mafia are cleared to proceed as you like. I am just expressing MY opinons and my personal experiences.
Fell free to sherd them at will.
M&M sorry to rant on but you did ask me to....
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I'm a die hard 45/70 fan. Its my primary trail rifle up here but I gotta agree with H&H on this one. When I do make it to africa, the 458Lott will be joining me.I had one before, loved it, sold it, gonna build me a better one. I feel there is a time and place for everything, and using the right tool for the job.
MeekandMild
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H&H, thank you. I figured there was something else to it, but have never seen a dead elephant. I seriously doubt I will ever hunt anything bigger than elk or black bear.
If you would, could you comment more on the brittleness of hard cast lead alloys (surely all the bullets don't split in two) versus full copper jacketed bullets? Also what about use of lathe turned bronze bullets; is there a place for them in big game hunting?
If you would, could you comment more on the brittleness of hard cast lead alloys (surely all the bullets don't split in two) versus full copper jacketed bullets? Also what about use of lathe turned bronze bullets; is there a place for them in big game hunting?
Balog
Member
Isn't bronze ammo considered AP by F-Troop? Or do those rules only apply to "pistol" ammo like 7.62x39?
MeekandMild
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Balog, I was wondering about hunting African game with bronze bullets. I don't know of any North American game which would need such a hard bullet.
There's an old Mauser gunsmith trick...
Not a poster child for the .45-70 Mafia (yet), but I'm taking either my Ruger #1S or Siamese Mauser repeater conversion on a guided hunt in the not-too-distant future. Handloads will be my reliable minimum of 405gr, 2000fps, and I'm leaning on either the Beartooth or Speer Tungstens. Or am I about to become a Cape Buffalo fashion accessory?
Where a slight bevel of the extractor claw face allows single-round chamber stuffing, without hurting the extractor or killing the controlled-round feeding.
Not a poster child for the .45-70 Mafia (yet), but I'm taking either my Ruger #1S or Siamese Mauser repeater conversion on a guided hunt in the not-too-distant future. Handloads will be my reliable minimum of 405gr, 2000fps, and I'm leaning on either the Beartooth or Speer Tungstens. Or am I about to become a Cape Buffalo fashion accessory?
Balog
Member
MeekandMild: I understand. However, I was assuming that you would load the rounds in CONUS before heading to the Dark Continent. Thus, if they were illegal here they could still get you in trouble. I'd hate to see a good THR'er get busted on a BS "felony" and lose his ability to own guns legally.
OP
OP
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M&M,
Funny you should mention about the bronze turned bullets. Ashleys tests (for what they are worth?) Showed that a turned bronze bullet with a squared off flat nose (sorta like a partial round nose that has sharp edges and a flat face) was by far and away the most reliable straight line penetrater. And it held together best as well.
As far as legality i wasn't aware that it was a problem. I"ll check up on it however. As this test was being conducted for a popular LE magazine I'd think it was either ok or they had the legal paper work to do it.
I have had really good luck with Woodliegh solids and I have about a dozen or so around that I've recovered from vaious big critters I'll get some pictures up. I really like the Barnes monloithic solids as well except for the fact that they have quit making them in the .475 diameter. (freakin morons) what are they thinking that a guy who shoots a .470 won't need a solid? After all it is an ELEPHANT gun.............
And finally no not all hard cast bullets break up but more of them do than the bullets I've mentioned. And once again we are talking about a life or death situation. Would you use a parachute that usually opens?
Gewehr,
You'll probably live. Have a great hunt.
In fact you'll probably come back and post about what a great round the .45-70 is for buffalo because chances are you won't get into trouble. Most likley you'll sail a couple through the boiler room wait twenty minutes and go collect your Nyati Kubwa Sana.
It's when the doodoo hits the fan that I perfer a little more gun. And I've already beat that horse to death so I'll just pull my riggin and walk away.
Where are you going?
Funny you should mention about the bronze turned bullets. Ashleys tests (for what they are worth?) Showed that a turned bronze bullet with a squared off flat nose (sorta like a partial round nose that has sharp edges and a flat face) was by far and away the most reliable straight line penetrater. And it held together best as well.
As far as legality i wasn't aware that it was a problem. I"ll check up on it however. As this test was being conducted for a popular LE magazine I'd think it was either ok or they had the legal paper work to do it.
I have had really good luck with Woodliegh solids and I have about a dozen or so around that I've recovered from vaious big critters I'll get some pictures up. I really like the Barnes monloithic solids as well except for the fact that they have quit making them in the .475 diameter. (freakin morons) what are they thinking that a guy who shoots a .470 won't need a solid? After all it is an ELEPHANT gun.............
And finally no not all hard cast bullets break up but more of them do than the bullets I've mentioned. And once again we are talking about a life or death situation. Would you use a parachute that usually opens?
Gewehr,
You'll probably live.
Have a great hunt. In fact you'll probably come back and post about what a great round the .45-70 is for buffalo because chances are you won't get into trouble. Most likley you'll sail a couple through the boiler room wait twenty minutes and go collect your Nyati Kubwa Sana.
It's when the doodoo hits the fan that I perfer a little more gun. And I've already beat that horse to death so I'll just pull my riggin and walk away.
Where are you going?
HankB
Member
The Speer African Grand Slam solids are lathe turned bronze with a tungsten carbide core. Available in .375, .416, and .458 calibers (with a rumored .470 coming) they're freely available as components. No legal issues for use in a rifle.
As far as all the debate on the .45/70, consider that the Brits had a cartridge with similar ballistics in their .577/.450 Martini Henry, dating back to 1871 or so. Putting a 480 grain bullet out at about 1350 ft/sec, it was used throughout the British Empire in the 19th century - including quite a lot of service in Africa.
No question that this heavy slug will hit hard - even John "Pondoro" Taylor thought well of the cartridge. But yet those "in the know" moved up to various nitro .450s, .465s, .470s, etc. They wanted more power. And they didn't seem to want a cartridge like Garret's souped-up .45/70s, but something more . . . a LOT more.
I believe Garret's cartridges are quite good within their limits . . . but those limits are less than the limits of the big NE cartridges or their modern equivalents.
I can't go for a while, yet.
Indentured Servant, currently deployed and all. But once I rotate back and get my travel voucher and family separation pay from Uncle Sam, I'm taking a bunch of leave, then it's off to get at least one each Cape Buffalo and American Bison. I'll leave the lions, tigers, and elephants to the Nitro Express folks. Darn, I can't remember the last time I had buffalo burgers, better than MRE's, for certain!
Indentured Servant, currently deployed and all. But once I rotate back and get my travel voucher and family separation pay from Uncle Sam, I'm taking a bunch of leave, then it's off to get at least one each Cape Buffalo and American Bison. I'll leave the lions, tigers, and elephants to the Nitro Express folks. Darn, I can't remember the last time I had buffalo burgers, better than MRE's, for certain!
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