What I like in a dangerous game rifle.

[lilbiggun]

I also cycled my savage 111 (338) upside down and it also worked. So did my ole ladies interarms (I wanted to compare the 2).

Yeah I'd say about 99% of bear encounters have people at the root cause. I know all mine are. Another time I was crawling through a bear tunnel through alders and sure as hell the bear was still in it. I dont know who turned and hauled butt the fastest, me or the bear.

Thast why I either use open sites or a low power scope. I have a leupy 1.5X5 on my whelen (my current all around gun) with iron sites. Things happen way to fast and I have been caught by a bear with my scope on 9X. bad call on my part.

I'm glad I didnt have to shoot that bear. I would feel real bad if I did cuz I forced a bear to follow its natural instinct (protect his food source).

 

[H&Hhunter]

Libiggun,

In really tight country like the alder brush or the long grass notthing beats a good set of irons and a set of ghost rings is truely king in that situation. A scope becomes a liability. But like you many times I am hunting with the rifle that I carry which makes a good low power variable a good comprimise. Especially in more open country like tundra.

Just remeber to always keep it on the lowest setting...my favorite low power variable is the Luepold 1.75X6 just because the 32MM objective gives it a bit more light in poor conditions than the 20MM scopes.


Hank thanks for the heads up. I'm fully aware of the BS going on in both Zim and the RSA right now. I wouldn't even be going to Zim and giving those bastards my hard earned money except for the fact that the PH is an old friend of mine and I will support him anywhere.

As far as the RSA goes I hope to god that those SOBs are just talking tough. I have so many good friends over there I'd hate to see it fall apart now after all they've been through. And if it does I hope that they have the strength to fight. It would be a blood bath no matter how it goes.

That'd be one I'd have a hard time staying out of!!!!

But I'm sure the UN would step in and keep the innocents from being slaughtered...Yeah right..Not if they're white.

 

[HankB]

H&H Hunter, I really have to nitpick with this statement:

Just remeber to always keep it on the lowest setting...my favorite low power variable is the Luepold 1.75X6 just because the 32MM objective gives it a bit more light in poor conditions than the 20MM scopes.

The amount of usable light will not actually be greater if the scope is set at its lowest power. At 1.75x, a 20mm objective will produce an exit pupil of 11.4mm, a 32mm objective, 18.3mm . . . both are larger than the fully-dilated pupil of a dark-adapted human eye (normally taken as 7mm) so if axial transmission is equal (a function of glass type, quality, cumulative thickness, and coatings) they'll look equally bright. The situation will change as magnification goes up, as at 6x, the exit pupil diameters will be 3.3mm and 5.3mm respectively. But the 32mm objective won't look "brighter" until you zoom up, other things being equal.

HOWEVER, note the size of the exit pupils at low power. The 32mm objective scope may not look brighter, but the position of your eye within the 'scopes exit pupil will be just a little less critical, So the 32mm objective is an advantage at low power, but not because of brightness.

Hope this makes things clearer.

Again, good luck on going to Zimbabwe. Do be careful, and I suggest you verify that you won't be hunting on any "proscribed" lands. The USA has imposed sanctions on Mugabe and about 50 of his top cronies, and has prohibited Americans from doing business with them. This would include hunting on lands or ranches where any of these people has a financial interest. You might double-check this before you leave, as in the wake of the "land reform" (aka thievery) going on, there's no telling who "owns" a particular parcel of land.

As far as RSA . . . everything I could write about the current government there would be decidedly un-PC. A lot of white South Africans have fled. Among those who are left, I think there would be more than just a handful who'd emulate Martin Olds . . .

As far as the UN . . . no doubt if they got involved, it would be on the wrong side.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Hank,

Thanks for shedding some "light" on the scope issue.

Yeah I've already checked the area it is not on the list. Most of the ranches listed are private pieces of ground. I will be hunting a government concession up north known as The Dande area.

 

[St. Gunner]

H&H,

One question from a lowly pig blaster who hasn't set foot in the face of Buffalo or Elephant.

I have a mauser 98 action, which would be a CRF, yet I rarely take it to the woods anymore. The problem, when the mag runs dry on you, you must place a round into the mag under spring tension to chamber it. With a push feed you can simply plop a round over the magazine and jam it home for a quick follow-up. I've done in countless hogs that way on multiple targets.

Now I realize the goal on dangerous stuff is to drop it quickly with one round maybe two. But when things go really sour, your mag runs dry, and you are attempting to avoid becoming part of the African landscape at the horns and hooves of some beast or another. How important is CRF when you are trying to chamber another round as you dance around a tree avoiding certain death, or perching from its branches as some critter tries to uproot the tree?

Which is the more feasible scenario? Working the bolt at all after being smacked silly by a big critter and flying through the air. Or attempting to reload under pressure while also attempting to avoid becoming a statistic?

Does the answer lie in a detachable magazine rifle with CRF?

Just curious...

 

[BigG]

St. Gunner: I'll just chime in here. The bolt gun of any description is a decided second best solution to the dangerous game equation. When there was unlimited shooting of jumbos, rhinos, buffs, and lions the best tool for the job was found to be the SXS rifle.

A good shot with one of those could anchor two, reload and anchor two more before the herd got nervous and moved. If things did not work out the second shot was as fast as an autoloader with no action other than a trigger pull necessary. The bolt gun was decidedly inferior to all the old African hunters I've read. It came from a desire for men of lesser means to get into the game and the fact that the Germans dumped a bunch of cheesy mausers in Africa as trade goods, IIRC.

If you are going to use second best, it makes sense to use the top of the line, imho. The best of the bolt guns is still the Mauser 98 type among fans of the type and imho. YMMV

 

[HankB]

The bolt gun was decidedly inferior to all the old African hunters I've read.

Then I guess you haven't read anything by W. D. M. "Karamojo" Bell.

 

[12-34hom]

Bolt action rifles.

John Taylor used a pair of Mausers in many of his hunting expeditions.

12-34hom.

 

[BigG]

Mojo was a law unto himself and hardly reflects the typical hunter like Baker, Selous, etc.

Taylor used all sorts due to differing circumstances, many of which were financial, but given his druthers he would take a two-barrel every time.

 

[H&Hhunter]

St Gunner,

You bring yup a very valid point. And part of the reason that I've gone to a double for serious close in work.

However let me try and address your question.

First of all a Win mod 70 crf will allow you to single load into the chamber. It's not good for the extractor but it is mechanically possible. I've done it on several occasions. As far as a true M-98 like an Orbendorf I don't know as I' ve never tried it with one nor have I ever owned one.

As far as your scenario about reloading after your gun go's dry. Well if you've got to that point and Mr. Horriblus Enragedeous is still coming you may well have an advantage with a chamber loadable rifle (see my comment about doubles above). However the more likely scenario in my mind is the problem of a double feed or a lost round due to movement or tripping or force that while chambering that will cause a PF rifle to missfeed. A charge scenario happens fast and it's really more about getting off a few shots from your magaizine than reloading a dry rifle. However never say never sometimes it's just not your lucky day.



You will see very few if any serious DG hunting PH's use anything other than a CRF or a double. That should tell you something. And guys please remember I am not telling you what you should shoot. I'm just telling you what I like. Hunt with what ever trips your trigger. It's a personal choice.

Now as far as the double vs bolt gun thing goes. Which is really could be a whole other thread.....A double is superior to the bolt in several circumstances. the bolt is superior to the double in most circumstances if that makes sense.

A double is the king of close quarters fast shooting with a quick follow up shot. There is nothing faster in a heavy sporting rifle PERIOD. If it fits you correctly it points like a fine shotgun. It fires a heavy bullet capable of turning or killing the largest game on eart and it provides an instantsecond shot if needed. I've heard the arguments about a good man on a bolt being just as fast.

While a good man can work a bolt fast it's not even close to a double for the second shot. A good man with a double can reload and get off four shots nearly as fast as guy can cycle four through a bolt. But as before not even close as far as really getting them out there.

It all comes down to personal preferance and training. I like both doubles and bolts. If I'm following up a gut shot Buff in the grass I want a double. If I'm taking a follow up shot at a buff running away at 100 yards in open country I want a good bolt gun so I can stick him 3 or 4 more times before he gets to the grass.

As far as Bell goes I think he was a one in a million type shooter and an excentric man to say the least. Anyone who can wing shoot with a iron sigthed mauser and hit most of the time is an unusual cat.

Hey Hank all of the rifles Bell used were mauser type actions. When did the first push feeds come out?

 

[St. Gunner]

First of all a Win mod 70 crf will allow you to single load into the chamber. It's not good for the extractor but it is mechanically possible.

I never knew that, only Winchester I ever owned had a lever...

My mauser you simply can't do it, I guess maybe it is possible, but it would take more strength than I want to use...

I'm just curious on all this, most of my shooting here on hogs is done with either a Browning A-bolt in .280 or some semi-auto with 30rd mags...

When I start my next job here in a few months an account is going to be set-up where a portion of every check goes to the Africa fund. Its been my dream since I was about 12yrs old and shot my first big game.

I think the answer is an M14 type rifle chambered for .460 weatherby. With some 10rd mags...

I spend alot of time in the brush and busting hogs, i've had some trouble on occasion with my mauser and feeding problems when it is dirty and nasty(Blood, mud, and hair in the action; don't ask how; you don't want to know) I've had revolvers tie up after going for a swim in a creek and catching some mud. I keep waiting on my Browning to fail me, but so far no matter how nasty it has functioned every time. I've taken my 870 down to the creek and worked it under water a few times to clear the gunk out...

I think if I was in the position where I knew my life was on the line if the rifle screwed up, i'd probably opt for the double, probably for the main reason so many prefered it, you pretty much have two guns. I've thought a .357 was looking awful small while crawling through thickets to the dogs and a big boar hog, I bet a .44 mag would look like a cork gun when a bolt busted a firing pin. And Africa version of the meatgrinder was bearing down...

 

[nico]

not to completely change the direction of the thread, but why are there no dg sized lever guns? I figure it must have something to do with the length of the case, but if it could be done, I would think it would be a decent compromise between the second shot quickness of a double and the accuracy of a bolt action (or is a double more accurate than a lever action?).

 

[Art Eatman]

No research, so I'll quibble a bit: The Remington 721 must have been one of the first push feeds, at least as far as mass production. The push feed allows the greater enclosure of the case head, and I don't recall any other gunmaker touting the strength of the action as did Remington when it introduced the 721.

It's a good question for Harley.

, Art

 

[H&Hhunter]

Nico,

The Lever gun is really starting to come into it's own as we speak. I know of at least 3 PH's who are using modified 1895's in 50 Alaskan (500gr bullet at 2000fps). Dave Clay of Arlington TX has built a rifle I think it's a 1885 win . He has built a propriotary case based off of a 45/110. It is launching a 500gr bullet at 2300fps +. So the lever gun is definately starting to see some light on the dark continent.
A good quality double that is correctly regulated is as accurate as any lever gun. My Searcy will shoots individula barrel groups that clover leaf at 75 yards and the barrels regulate about 3" apart at that range. Quite usable. Of course a quality lever gun will run you about 75% less money.


St Gunner,

I've never had a feeding problem on a Win mod 70 CRF. And I've had em soaked in mud, blood, and assorted other crude. Just curious what kind of mauser do you have that's giving you all these fits?

I like a double for its redundancy you've got two rifles with two firing pins and two triggers so if one goes TU the one will still fire. Never get a single selective trigger on a double!

A .460 weatherby M-14 would be cool but illegal in most African countries.



St Gunner when you get ready to go to Africa drop me a line. I come across some smokin deal on occasion. (I ain;t trying to sell you anything just would like to help out if possible...)

 

[HankB]

I think the answer is an M14 type rifle chambered for .460 weatherby

Well, I remember reading about someone who took a BAR (the sporting rifle, not the military machine gun) in .338 and converted it to .458 Win. And IIRC there was someone down in Florida converting M1 Garands to .458 as well.

And now that FALS are supposed to be coming out in Winchester's short mag, it's probably just a matter of time until someone necks up the case . . .

Not quite a .460 Wby, but as H&H said, this sort of thing is probably not legal to hunt with in most African countries anyway.

(Hey, wait a minute . . . what about the Barrett Light 50? Sure, then you'd actually WANT a gun bearer or two, but . . . )

 

[St. Gunner]

Just curious what kind of mauser do you have that's giving you all these fits?

It's not giving me fits, just something that is a poor answer to what I normally do with a rifle. I use it almost every year to shoot a deer or two, its fixin to be outfitted with a high magnification scope for long range hog shooting over oat and wheat fields. Its a Customized German Mauser rifle, barreled in .270 Winchester with a Shilen barrel. Its a gun dad built the year I was born and gave to me when I turned 12. The Walnut in the stock came from a tree in my great grandfathers yard, not the prettiest piece, but it doesn't shift and its cut just right. He used it to put money in my savings account when they shot for money on the river bottom where I grew up. Bottles at 500yds. Its on its second shilen and before long will need a 3rd, groups went from sub 1/2moa to just under sub 3/4moa in the last couple years. I figure I have right at 4500rds through this barrel. So I don't hate it, just that when I need a fast reload on hogs it is lacking.

 

[s&w 24]

If I'm reading between the lines If I have a rifle that has proven it's reliability and that I am well trained in I would be better armed that with a 45 or 50 cal monster that I have 20 rounds thru ( I.E. It's better to take your 45-70 marlin that you have shot for years than buy a new 460 weatherby that you are scared to shoot)

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

for the record, the Lee-enfield is a CRF rifle, not a push feed like the african hunter guy seems to think. he's right about the Lee Enfield being by far the best military bolt action produced.

 

[H&Hhunter]

for the record, the Lee-enfield is a CRF rifle, not a push feed like the african hunter guy seems to think.

Andrew,

Go reread the article. The author never even hints that a Lee-Enfield is a push feed. Rather he compares it's strengths and weaknesses to a Mauser action.

S&W,

A very valid point. Of course the answer is to get really good with a real DG rifle. I can't imagine some buffoun buying a .460 shoting it twice then heading out for a spot of elephant shooting.

Unfortunately this seems to happen on occasion. Usually to the well heeled "gentlemen" hunter who doesn't have a frickin clue about rifles hunting or anything else save his financials....

Poor attempt at humor to follow:

I would imagine those hunts usually start something like this.."Oh Biff you simply must accompany lovey and I to the dark continent this year". We'll have a splendid time do go run to that horrid gun store and buy yourself a rifle.

Once Biff gets to the horrid store he meets up with a GSC (Gun Store Commando) who sells him a Wounderby and the rest is history.

PC Statement to follow:

Please take this lightly guys I'm making an attempt at humor.........

Post finished please feel free to shred H&Hhunter at will.

 

[lilbiggun]

H&H,
You may be joking but I see it all the time up here. Thats why I dont go to the range from July-sept. People scare me (with firearms) who dont know what they are doing.

A couple years back the ole lady and I were at the range. This guy came up and asked if I had a rod so he could clear a blockage. I pulled out my cleaning rod and tapped the bullet out of his bbl (45/70gg). after the 3rd time I told my wife to pack up cuz we were leaving. I questioned him on his reloads and he said they were fine(?????). he was actually happy when a bullet actually hit paper. I turned him into range control as a safety issue. Of course he said it was the guns fault. You see the same thing with folks with calibers larger than they can handle. all you gotta do is go rabbit creek RR in anchorage and you will see it in 5 minutes just before moose season opens.

pisses me off.

 

[St. Gunner]

Of course he said it was the guns fault.

Help them dispel the myth, I teach some folks here at the house on occasion and normally help at the range if somebody is having a problem. I'm no genious with a rifle, handgun, or shotgun, but I am pretty decent. And I like everyone to be proficient, I see to many people buy a gun, shoot it a few times, become uncomfortable and sell it quickly then they they don't become a gun nut and vote the way i want them to. One of my favorite things to do is like this.

Newbie- "Dang I can't hit squat"
Me- "need a hand."
Newbie-"Uh I think its the gun or something."
Me- Care if I try a couple shots?"
Newbie-"Sure, have at it so I know it isn't me."

So I shoot a couple shots, normally they all make a group on the paper. Then I just adjust the scope or sights to zero it.

Me-"Here try it know, the scope was off"
I hand them the rifle with what they think is a loaded chamber.
They prepare to fire, get all locked into a shooting position, and click, normlly the flinch looks like the recoil from a .460 Weatherby and they look at me with a sick look.

Newbie-what the heck
Me- I didn't load a round, you are flinching.

So then we work from there, normally I have them roll up a jacket for a rifle or tell em to go buy a Past pad until they get used to it. I haven't used either in awhile, but I bet if I wanted to sight in a canon, i'd be doing it. The thing is with most guys, they won't let you correct em, unless you make em look like a fool with the empty chamber deal.

I had a guy out here a couple weeks ago, he had a new Glock 40 and was trying to learn to shoot, never owned a gun before. So I decided to help him when he called. My wife was out there watching and shooting, I tried to explain some stuff but he wouldn't listen, to macho or something. I finally handed him his pistol with it cocked and mag inserted but nothing in the chamber. Did you know without firing a round,just from firing pin spring momentum a Glock will rise almost a foot? After that he opened his mind a bit. Now my wife until that day had never really shot, so I was coaching her, it took me less than 10rds to have her sticking all rds from my Ruger P95 in the center mass, but she listened. He shot like 100rds before I got through to him.

H&H,

Dad used to run a camp for some oil executives, many a time a guy showed up for his first hunt, with his first gun, with the tag still attached and the scope not even mounted or anything.

He finally just bought some camp rifles, a couple M77 Rugers in .243 and ammo and had them there for the newbies so they could kill something and not hurt themselves with the .338 Win Mag the salesmen sold em to hunt South Texas deer.

 

[MeekandMild]

H&H, if you would be so kind as to comment on this Garrett article I'd appreciate it. I have read a lot of theory in my life, but their assertions seem counterintuitive unless there is another, undefined factor.

 

[Art Eatman]

M&M, that's an interesting article, for sure!

Just guessing as to why they got those results: There must be some sort of compaction effect in the target material when a bullet strikes. (What the heck else COULD happen? These aren't expanding bullets, so there's no increase in frontal area.) The faster the bullet, the more the compaction. More compaction effectively increases the density of the target material. Walnut instead of balsa.

I'm reminded of the comments of how "hard" water is for one jumping from a bridge instead of just from a diving board. The speed at time of impact is vastly greater, although I've never seen how deep a "jumper" goes when bailing off a bridge. (Might not be any correlation with bullet behavior, of course.)

FWIW, Art

 

[St. Gunner]

Art,

Being an idiot in my youth and out to impress the young ladies I used to climb a rock face at a local lake and jump from heights up to 60' into the water. Almost without fail the impact from 60' would be shallower, simply because it was like the water reacted different. I'm not sure what the rate of fall is for an object dropped, I wasn't a math whiz ever, but it seemed like above 30' you never got any faster on the way down, its like you reached peak speed. But when you'd strike the water, often your feet and such would feel like they hit rock, often you'd begin to tilt and never go deeper than 5 or 6 feet. But yet from 10-15 feet you'd often end up having to swim up a long ways after impact.

 

[lilbiggun]

Steve,
I did help him, I got him off the range. It wasnt about his shooting ability, it was about his relaoding ability. Luckily he was noticing everytime a bullet didnt exit the barrel when it should have. All it would take was 1 time when he fired while he had bullet still in the bbl and things could go from a good day at the range to a bad day.

I do help folks at the range. A couple of weeks ago I was at the range and next to me was a couple and the wife was learning how to shoot a 30-06. She would shoot a round, shake her head and walk away and the husband was trying to get her to keep shooting. I gave her about a dozen of my "rabbit" rounds. 200gr hard cast in front of about 11gr of unique. No recoil and very accurate out to about 50yards. She loved it, she ended up shooting all of them (about 30) at the end she was doing pretty good.

Big difference between a safety situation and a situation where someone is unsure or needs some guidance on the proper way to shoot.

When I was in the military I was an RSO and my buddy was the RO. We would do the same thing. Load a mag for someone who wasnt shooting good or a new shooter with empty brass mixed into the mag to show them how they were flinching or jerking.