BluesBear
member
Just remember that the same four safety rules apply to pepper spray too. Lest you end up Cajun seasoning your own eyeballs.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=202973
What if deadly force is not required?
- Thread starter karhu
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http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=202973
Bigct
Member
Walk away, run away. If that fails and it appears to be confrentational, i'll second the pepper spray. To a drunk or anyone not expecting it OC spray is really nasty stuff and will alow you the time to get away.
Never ever grapple, punch, kick, spit or allow an aggressor anywere near you while you are carying a gun. If the two of you go to the ground or he puts you in a bear hug, there is always chance of your gun ending up the wrong guys hands.
Never ever grapple, punch, kick, spit or allow an aggressor anywere near you while you are carying a gun. If the two of you go to the ground or he puts you in a bear hug, there is always chance of your gun ending up the wrong guys hands.
Jeff22
Member
force options
If carrying a concealed handgun on your person, it's best to have some kind of intermediate force option available as well (depending upon local laws and circumstances).
Hopefully you can avoid many potential problems through situational awareness, but if you can't it's more likely in most places that you would face some kind of physical threat that does not justify the use of deadly force. Going hands on can present lots of problems, so OC or an impact weapon could be a very useful thing to have available.
You need to have an option between talking/verbal presence, and deadly force, and retreat is not always an option nor tactically appropriate.
As a cop, I've had to baton people twice and use OC spray three times. In all cases, the suspect stopped being aggressive and gave up, but in only ONE case (with OC) was there really any degree of incapacitation (I hosed him at close range and I was VERY lucky I didn't cross-contaminate my own self. I could still wear contact lenses back then, and I was always very aware of the danger of getting OC into my contacts) Nothing is 100%, but it's good to have options.
If carrying a concealed handgun on your person, it's best to have some kind of intermediate force option available as well (depending upon local laws and circumstances).
Hopefully you can avoid many potential problems through situational awareness, but if you can't it's more likely in most places that you would face some kind of physical threat that does not justify the use of deadly force. Going hands on can present lots of problems, so OC or an impact weapon could be a very useful thing to have available.
You need to have an option between talking/verbal presence, and deadly force, and retreat is not always an option nor tactically appropriate.
As a cop, I've had to baton people twice and use OC spray three times. In all cases, the suspect stopped being aggressive and gave up, but in only ONE case (with OC) was there really any degree of incapacitation (I hosed him at close range and I was VERY lucky I didn't cross-contaminate my own self. I could still wear contact lenses back then, and I was always very aware of the danger of getting OC into my contacts) Nothing is 100%, but it's good to have options.
gunsmith
member
pepper spray works pretty good on drunks
however it may take awhile on some folks who mix alcohol & drugs like cocaine (crack) which is a really good analgesic.
I carried two different kinds daily when I lived in a bad "party" neighborhood
in SF, if it wasn't windy I used the fogger and the stream was for more precise work & windy conditions.
Like all defense tools you have to practice, I gots lots of practice in my old SF neighborhood as every 2 feet there was a stoned drunk miscreant who was used to pushing people around because it is san francisco.
however it may take awhile on some folks who mix alcohol & drugs like cocaine (crack) which is a really good analgesic.
I carried two different kinds daily when I lived in a bad "party" neighborhood
in SF, if it wasn't windy I used the fogger and the stream was for more precise work & windy conditions.
Like all defense tools you have to practice, I gots lots of practice in my old SF neighborhood as every 2 feet there was a stoned drunk miscreant who was used to pushing people around because it is san francisco.
evan price
Member
The State of Ohio's opinion on the situation (Since I live in Ohio after all), emphasis on second paragraph is mine.
For situations like this, I bust out with the current issue of PLAYBOY. I have a special concealed carry holster and permit for it and when accosted by a drunk that is pushing and shoving I usually present it from the holster in the HEFNER stance and get a good sight picture on the assailant.
Remember sometimes a spare HUSTLER OR PENTHOUSE is needed... You have got to avoid failure to stop scenario's so I recommend a MINIMUM of a PLAYBOY. I wouldn't be caught dead with an FHM or MAXIM in a situation like this. Those may work great on teenagers, but this is full bore combat here....
Remember sometimes a spare HUSTLER OR PENTHOUSE is needed... You have got to avoid failure to stop scenario's so I recommend a MINIMUM of a PLAYBOY. I wouldn't be caught dead with an FHM or MAXIM in a situation like this. Those may work great on teenagers, but this is full bore combat here....
CAPTAIN MIKE
Member
Suggestion to Consider
Read the article "The Case for Integrated Training" in the May / June 2006 issue of Concealed Carry magazine.
Read the article "The Case for Integrated Training" in the May / June 2006 issue of Concealed Carry magazine.
Limeyfellow
Member
I used to work in pubs for a few years and this would happen quite often that you have some drunk being obnoxious. Most the time if you ignore them and wander off they tend to forget what they are even saying. If things get more violent they normally have people beat the snot out of them for you. If they come to attack you even after disengaging and threatening damage then you done what is needed to respond in the US with your concealed weapon in the US.
kikr
Member
walking away is the most prudent choice. All others lead to escalation that will result in negative consequences. Anytime your involved in an altercation there will be legal/finacial repercussions afterwards. The question is whats it worth?
crofrog
Member
exactly.
Walk away, go get the bouncers, they'll come ask the dumbass to leave.
The reasons this works best:
1. You don't have to fight
2. They have to leave
3. There are alot more bouncers than there are of you.
4. Bouncers normally have a good working relationship with the local PD and are covered by the insurance provided by the bar for legal expenses.
5. If you decide to fight with out getting the bouncers, the bouncers are throwing both of you out.
6. If you spray pepper spray in a crowded bar, the cops will probally arrest you.
Walk away, go get the bouncers, they'll come ask the dumbass to leave.
The reasons this works best:
1. You don't have to fight
2. They have to leave
3. There are alot more bouncers than there are of you.
4. Bouncers normally have a good working relationship with the local PD and are covered by the insurance provided by the bar for legal expenses.
5. If you decide to fight with out getting the bouncers, the bouncers are throwing both of you out.
6. If you spray pepper spray in a crowded bar, the cops will probally arrest you.
My CCW instructor suggested all of us carry an ASP Palm Protector (kubuton looking pepper spray). Perfectly legal and a good intermediary between the running and using deadly force.
I carry one on my key chain as does my wife. Suggest you guys do the same.
I carry one on my key chain as does my wife. Suggest you guys do the same.
"When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
One of the reasons I usually recommend against people getting a gun as their first self defense investment is just that. Deadly force must be the final, not the first, option in regular life. If the gun is an extreme option on a continuum it is more likely to be kept in proper perspective.
I also dislike anything that increases dependency. If your safety is a matter of what you possess rather than what you can do yourself you will be in serious trouble if your magic talisman doesn't keep you safe. If you are the weapon it's just a tool. Of course weapons have their place. But the gun first - yourself second mindset is destructive to self-reliance.
One of the reasons I usually recommend against people getting a gun as their first self defense investment is just that. Deadly force must be the final, not the first, option in regular life. If the gun is an extreme option on a continuum it is more likely to be kept in proper perspective.
I also dislike anything that increases dependency. If your safety is a matter of what you possess rather than what you can do yourself you will be in serious trouble if your magic talisman doesn't keep you safe. If you are the weapon it's just a tool. Of course weapons have their place. But the gun first - yourself second mindset is destructive to self-reliance.
U.S.SFC_RET
Member
First of all as one poster put it never walk into a bar with a pistol in Most states it's very illegal anyway, shoot someone? stick a fork in you, you're done. Never go into a strange bar you don't know. Never go into a strange bar alone. Stay together, stay close. Bar patrons sense that and should leave you alone. You don't need to go find trouble, trouble finds you in situations like this. My advice is simply this if you have to go to a bar go to a like minded bar. If you are country go to one, ect. If you are female never accept a drink from a stranger, always get it from the bartender or waitress, (date rape) this is one of the reasons why you should stay together.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Bars
U.S.SFC_RET Ditto. If ya feel like ya need to carry a gun in order to go in that bar...don't GO in that bar.
U.S.SFC_RET Ditto. If ya feel like ya need to carry a gun in order to go in that bar...don't GO in that bar.
VARifleman
Member
I advise against hand to hand for battery charges and it puts yourself in a worse situation. Give yourself distance and spray with some pepper.
Jeff White, what was the mother charged with?
Jeff White, what was the mother charged with?
The mother wasn't charged. The son won't testify that she hit him and no one else who was at the scene will admit to seeing that part of it. All we had to charge the mother with is what the son said when he was arrested. Since he's going to deny he said it now, there isn't much of a case against her.
Domestic cases are often that way and the law that allows us to charge someone even if the victim won't testify is usually handy for separting the combatants for a while. But in this case the son has no injuries that can be attributed to his mother hitting him, he now says he won't testify that she did and consequently a domestic battery charge will be almost impossible to prove against the mother. Current status is both sides are subject to an order of protection to stay away from each other.
Jeff
Domestic cases are often that way and the law that allows us to charge someone even if the victim won't testify is usually handy for separting the combatants for a while. But in this case the son has no injuries that can be attributed to his mother hitting him, he now says he won't testify that she did and consequently a domestic battery charge will be almost impossible to prove against the mother. Current status is both sides are subject to an order of protection to stay away from each other.
Jeff
A while back I was a regular at the blackjack table in a seedy bar that was nearby my apartment. One night I had a good buzz working and let a comment slip, at a volume I didn't think anyone else would hear, about a drunk like the figurative one in this thread. Unfortunately the beer had disabled that little mechanism between brain and mouth, that filter of content and volume that keeps inner monologue on the inside, and the guy heard what I said.
He came up, very close, and started having words with me. Specifically he told me that it was on when I walked out the door, then he walked away.
Short-term solution: As soon as he came up to me I tried to be friendly - "Hey man, I'm just messing around. How bout I get you something do drink." He wasn't interested.
Back-up short-term solution: I'm generally a guy that isn't hard to get along with. That night it came back to me in the form of a big favor. When I left, one other regular and one of the blackjack dealers saved me from possible legal trouble and a probable ass-kicking and walked toward the door with me. When the drunk saw me walk out with two other people he decided to find easier prey. He was later removed from the bar for actually starting a fight with someone else.
Long-term solution: I still go to that bar occasionally, but never on weekends and never alone. I still like the atmosphere (on quiet nights), the "by name" service, and the prices are still in my range.
Failing either short-term solution, I probably would have fallen back on a self-defense moved learned in the army that should have proven semi-effective. It involves the gonads and is informally referred to as the "grab, twist, and pull." Like many here, I've spent some time learning martial arts, but that night as I was heading for the door, the only moves my mind kept reviewing in case they were needed were the most simple ones, like the one above, or how the pen in my pocket could be used most effectively.
It's bears repeating again - if you need a weapon to be there, it's best just not to go. This was a rare circumstance at this place. Additionally, I made myself more conspicuous than I should have. In the end, I got lucky. Best of all, I learned from it and it could have been a much harsher lesson.
He came up, very close, and started having words with me. Specifically he told me that it was on when I walked out the door, then he walked away.
Short-term solution: As soon as he came up to me I tried to be friendly - "Hey man, I'm just messing around. How bout I get you something do drink." He wasn't interested.
Back-up short-term solution: I'm generally a guy that isn't hard to get along with. That night it came back to me in the form of a big favor. When I left, one other regular and one of the blackjack dealers saved me from possible legal trouble and a probable ass-kicking and walked toward the door with me. When the drunk saw me walk out with two other people he decided to find easier prey. He was later removed from the bar for actually starting a fight with someone else.
Long-term solution: I still go to that bar occasionally, but never on weekends and never alone. I still like the atmosphere (on quiet nights), the "by name" service, and the prices are still in my range.
Failing either short-term solution, I probably would have fallen back on a self-defense moved learned in the army that should have proven semi-effective. It involves the gonads and is informally referred to as the "grab, twist, and pull." Like many here, I've spent some time learning martial arts, but that night as I was heading for the door, the only moves my mind kept reviewing in case they were needed were the most simple ones, like the one above, or how the pen in my pocket could be used most effectively.
It's bears repeating again - if you need a weapon to be there, it's best just not to go. This was a rare circumstance at this place. Additionally, I made myself more conspicuous than I should have. In the end, I got lucky. Best of all, I learned from it and it could have been a much harsher lesson.
If running weren't an option I'd probably engage the guy I knew was a baddun'. Challenge or shooting depends on the particular situation. After that I'd address the other armed guy. Again, it depends on what he's doing and saying at that moment. If he's shooting the bad guy I probably won't be shooting him. If he's aiming at me, that's another story. If he's shooting me while I'm dealing with the known criminal, then it's just going to be a bad day for me. These things happen. If he's holding a badge and saying something like "Police!" I'll do whatever he says and just might drop my gun if it looks like he's nervous about me holding it. It all depends.
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