What if the 30-06 never existed.

Status
Not open for further replies.
The Turks are obviously not infested with lawyers like we are.

A politician bashing lawyers? There's gotta be some low-brow irony here. I'll have another beer and ponder it. :rolleyes:


I don't know about the '03 firing pin being easier to strip. It's sometimes hard to grip that little sleeve at the end of the spring without launching it. I wonder if it was economics, if the striker had to be replaced often due to corrosive ammo. The striker would be a lot cheaper than a whole firing pin.

Regards.
 
If we had adopted the '98 we wouldn't have had to worry about the cost of dropping the knob it didn't have.

I don't see the advantage of single loading a service rifle furnished with clipped ammo.

There was once a lot of ink on the '03 firing pin/striker rod setup; complete with pictures of them broken at the connection, not the tip. I don't know about weaknesses in the Mauser setup.


Re: All the weak low number '03s have already blown up... Dave leGate of Handloader and Rifle magazines once sacrificed several low number receivers. Breaking them with hammer blows that would not bend a high number gun or by dropping them on a concrete floor. I think there are some overhardened guns out there. I don't think they are a terrible risk, most of the wrecked guns for which a cause could be identified were due to soft case heads in WW I contract ammo, ammo greased in the attempt to prevent hard metal fouling, barrel obstructions, or the nitwit who crammed an 8mm into an '06 chamber (There were not near as many of these last as the warnings would lead you to think.) Hatcher documented 138 Springfields actually blown up in use, not all of them low numbers, out of a million made. He (and leGate) broke up some others in testing, but the incidence is still low.
 
A politician bashing lawyers? There's gotta be some low-brow irony here. I'll have another beer and ponder it.

My campaign slogan was, "A chicken in every pot, a car in every garage, and a lawyer on every lamp post." :p


I don't know about the '03 firing pin being easier to strip. It's sometimes hard to grip that little sleeve at the end of the spring without launching it. I wonder if it was economics, if the striker had to be replaced often due to corrosive ammo. The striker would be a lot cheaper than a whole firing pin.

Also a lot easier to carry a spare tip than a spare cocking piece and firing pin assembly!

If we had adopted the '98 we wouldn't have had to worry about the cost of dropping the knob it didn't have.

The striker with the knob was actually cheaper to make than one without, and with less waste metal.

I don't see the advantage of single loading a service rifle furnished with clipped ammo.

It means you can carry six rounds, instead of five.

It also makes for safer practice shooting.

There was once a lot of ink on the '03 firing pin/striker rod setup; complete with pictures of them broken at the connection, not the tip. I don't know about weaknesses in the Mauser setup.

The military mausers had a steel or brass lined hole in the stock for dismounting the firing pin. They still managed to break quite a few in the field.


Re: All the weak low number '03s have already blown up... Dave leGate of Handloader and Rifle magazines once sacrificed several low number receivers. Breaking them with hammer blows that would not bend a high number gun or by dropping them on a concrete floor. I think there are some overhardened guns out there. I don't think they are a terrible risk, most of the wrecked guns for which a cause could be identified were due to soft case heads in WW I contract ammo, ammo greased in the attempt to prevent hard metal fouling, barrel obstructions, or the nitwit who crammed an 8mm into an '06 chamber (There were not near as many of these last as the warnings would lead you to think.) Hatcher documented 138 Springfields actually blown up in use, not all of them low numbers, out of a million made. He (and leGate) broke up some others in testing, but the incidence is still low.

And we have no figures for the numbers of Mausers that failed in service -- we know they did, but not how many. So we can't say if the number of failures of Springfields was out of line or not.

And, again, as you say, they failed for many reasons not related to the heat treating of the receiver.
 
Probably time to clear up a couple misconceptions I see posted in this thread...

Here we go:

Isn't the 8x57 limited by fears that someone will shoot it in a 1893 Turk Mauser?

No. U.S. Domestic 8x57JS Mauser ammo is downloaded to maintain safe pressures when fired through 1888 Commission Rifles, which were designed for 0.318" bullets. Squeezing a 0.323" bullet through the '88 Commission Rifles tends to bump pressures up a wee bit, and they are nowhere near as strong as the '98 Mauser in construction. Hence, a domestic 8mm Mauser loading that's relatively close to .30-30 Winchester, running 37,000 CUP on the pressure gauge. That way, even when the 0.323" bullet heads down a vintage '88 Commission Rifle barrel, pressures will never get high enough to cause catastrophic failure. Wunnerful. Thank you, SAAMI. Like the Europeans have much problem distinguishing between 8x57J and 8x57JS.

The '93 Turkish Mausers are a whole different ball of wax. They originally began life as Small-Ring 7x57 Mausers, then were reworked at Ankara in the 1930's to accept 8x57JS ammunition. This meant either a new barrel, or the old 7mm barrel was bored out to 8mm (0.323"). The forward receiver rings were also cut out to accept the longer-seated bullets of the 8x57JS ammunition. These rifles, while originally designed and built for the low-pressure 7x57 rounds, are at least rebored to properly accept the 0.323" diameter 8x57JS bullet. Whether the small-ring receivers are up to the 8x57JS round's pressure is another story. Regardless, I'd feel better shooting U.S. domestic 8x57 ammo through a reworked '93 Turkish Mauser than I would full power European-spec 8x57JS.

Which means that although the reason for anemic U.S. 8x57JS ammo is the earlier '88 Commission Rifles, the '93 Turkish Mausers are probably doing a lot to keep SAAMI specs firmly in place with respect to the domestic ammo supply.

Now, somebody here said that the 1903 Springfield wasn't much of an improvement over the Large Ring '98 Mauser, even with the cocking knob. Well, you're sorta right, the M1903 Springfield wasn't an improvement over the '98 Mauser. The War Department didn't use the '98 Mauser as their pattern for the M1903 Springfield.

The ordnance technicians studied captured M1893 Spanish Mausers in 7x57, which they managed to acquire in goodly amounts after a rather rude awakening at San Juan Hill during the Spanish-American war. They also carried over what they considered to be desirable features as found on that other service rifle built at Springfield Armory between 1894-1902 (the U.S. Krag), such as the cocking knob on the striker, the thumbwheel windage-adjustable rear sight, and the magazine cutoff switch.

Oberndorf kept a tight lid on their prized '98 Mauser, and they weren't even widely available until sometime in 1899. Getting one to study and dissect wasn't really an option with respect to the upcoming M1903 Springfield. In 1899, the Army tried a more powerful loading for the .30 U.S. Krag rifle, but that rifle's single locking lug (and bolt-handle recess) just weren't up to the task. No problem, the Krag's successor rifle was already being prototyped, and was undergoing firing trials as early as 1900. It looked remarkably like a '93 Spanish Mauser, with some extra bits as mentioned above. Further development of the prototype led to it's introduction in 1903, but there were still problems. President Teddy Roosevelt wasn't too keen on the M1903's rod bayonet, and in 1905, Germany introduced their 8x57JS round, with a spitzer bullet moving at an even greater velocity than the previous round-nosed 8x57J loading. So the existing 1903's got sent back to Springfield Armory, and were rechambered for the newer .30-06 round with it's greater velocity, and all was well.

I know, I know, what about the extra, third locking lug found on the M1903 Springfield? If you compare it to the third lug on the '98 Mauser, they both serve the same function, but differ in execution. It probably wasn't too tough to add the lug to the design between 1899 and 1903, based on the emerging reputation of the '98 Mauser being introduced in the other hemisphere. Or maybe Springfield got "lug-happy" after their experiences with the Krag...

Regardless, the M1903 Springfield is a descendant of the Small-Ring '93 Spanish Mauser, not the Large-Ring '98 Mauser as is often repeated in Internet lore. ;)
 
The two piece firing pin is easier to strip than the Mauser firing pin -- with less danger of breakage while stripping
I don't know about that.

I haven't fully stripped my 03A3 bolt because it looked like a pita.

I can strip a mauser bolt with my eyes closed. Many mauser rifles even came with a handy dandy bolt disassemblytool embedded in the stock.
 
The .30-06 in a modern rifle has much greater potential than SAAMI allows.

How True. In addition to the .30-06, there are many other cartridges that are deliberately downloaded due to old rifles with weak actions out there. That being said, cartridges such as the .30-06 and 6.5x55 when chambered in a modern bolt action rifle, are capable of outstanding performance. I regularly shoot at 1,000 yards in F Class competition using both the .30-06 and 6.5x55. With the .30-06, I am safely able to drive a 190SMK at 2900fps, while the 6.5x55 will do 2950fps with a 142SMK. Judicious handloading with modern, slow burning powders is breathing new life back into these 100 year old cartridges.

Don
 
I haven't fully stripped my 03A3 bolt because it looked like a pita.

The 03A3 bolt is virtually identical to the Mauser bolt, except for the two-piece firing pin. Instead of inserting the tip of the firing pin into a dismount hole (and risking breaking it) all you do with the 03 is pull down the sleeve, slide the pin out, and release tension on the spring. Much easier and less risky than a Mauser.

You can also carry a spare firing pin in the butt trap -- try that with a Mauser.
 
I feel I'd be probably be shooting a goodmod. 98 chambered in 8mm. Ackley and I wouldn't realize how deprived I was...........Essex
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top