What if WW 296 "half charged" in 44 magnum.

[tightgroup tiger]

I loaded .357 Mag load with 296 clear down to 10 grs. They all went off but I had a large amount of brown smoke and at 15yds I could shoot a 3" circle out of the target but at 100 yds I had a 4' or larger group.
That is the inconsistency that you will get if you down load 296/110.
I played with these all summer long that year, every Sunday, and I never ever had a squib, but I could feel the inconsistent burn I was getting in the recoil. This was with magnum primers, I shot some with small pistol primers also and still didn't get a squib.
I guarantee I had a large amount of unburned powder though.

Edit to add: after that summer I switched to 2400, it was must more flexible than 296/110 and was very accurate.

 

[noylj]

I'd suspect you'd be looking at a squib. The old wives tale of pressure spikes/detonation, is just that.

Oh, there are pressure spikes--in fact, many pet loads have been "eliminated" when testing showed very large pressure spikes. They just aren't the disastrous powder spikes of mythology that blow up the whole gun and kill people.
The mythological pressure spikes were reportedly found with very long bottleneck cases with light loads of very slow powders where the powder is mostly located at the case head and at the bullet base. Since we all know that as you go down in pressure, you should also move to faster powders, I am sure that those trying to shoot their .358 Earblastinmagnumboomer with H870 at 750 fps learned their lessons several decades ago, though I would still bet that the whole thing requires very exacting lab conditions.

 

[FROGO207]

Sometimes it is easier to learn by others mishaps. I do take things with a dose of salt after the powder manufacturers lawyer up but when LOTS of people say there is a problem I will listen to the data. YMMV

 

[cfullgraf]

I fall into this camp, but I'll never know since I play way over in the other end! I likes 'em HOT!

Count me as Not a Believer in the much-feted below-minimum detonation phenomena. The combustion mechanics doesn't work out, and none of the technical references I've found support it. In any case, a squib and subsequent kaboom is definitely a possibility.

I'm not sure of the validity of the pressure spike information, but I heed the warnings about low powder charges with H110/W296 anyway.

If I want full powder loads, W296 has been my "go to" powder in 357 Magnum and a few other high pressure pistol rounds. Like sparkyv, I load 'em near maximum with W296. I've been using W296 since the early 1980's.

If I want a mid range load, I go to another more appropriate powder like Unique, Accurate #5 and a few other similar powders.

 

[Pivot Dr]

I’ve never had any pressure spikes with 296/H10 mostly because I don’t load it light. I can assure you that similar powder types, 760/H414 to be specific WILL spike pressures in significantly short powder charges. I have a .224 Wildcat that is similar to a 22 Chetah and doing a bit of load development with a new bullet and 760 powder, the pressure spike was indeed real and repeatable at will. I’ve no reason to believe that couldn’t occur with 296 in a large capacity handgun case as well. Seems like slow ball powders are the most likely culprits, especially with heavier bullets. It’s real, I’ve done it, I could repeat it at will but won’t again, and am pretty sure why it happens. My advice, don’t push your luck! A Ruger 77 is a lot stronger than a Blackhawk, I got away with it once with the 77.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Count me as Not a Believer in the much-feted below-minimum detonation phenomena.

Me too.

I double threw 11.75 grains, dont need to get into why

Stop doing this.

 

[edwardware]

I have a .224 Wildcat that is similar to a 22 Chetah and doing a bit of load development with a new bullet and 760 powder, the pressure spike was indeed real and repeatable at will.

I would be interested in more information. Case fill at which the pressure was higher than it was with an increased charge, what pressure sign, etc.

 

[Walkalong]

In the very beginning when all I had was a pistol powder measure, I did this with .223, but I was very careful and looked into each case when seating the bullets, something I still do. Doing it that way adds risk, plain and simple, if for no other reason than it adds a step. I saved up my pennies and bought a powder measure suited to the job. I was still loading on a single stage press then.

Y'all be careful out there.

 

[buck460XVR]

I'm not sure of the validity of the pressure spike information, but I heed the warnings about low powder charges with H110/W296 anyway.

^^^Yep, and those warnings are because of the high possibility of a squib with a low powder charge, no different than any other powder, regardless of it's burn rate, when used below min published charge rates. Folks who damage guns due to their reloading mistakes like to put the blame on the powder. Like with Covid-19, internet Gurus want us to believe they know more than the experts. Instead of actual proof, they use the "I know a guy". Like with the warning of Blue Dot and 125 gr projectiles in .357. Still lots of folks out there that think they know more about the safety of that load than Alliant.

 

[Palladan44]

I think the moral of the story is:
-Reloading/Handloading is a craft that requires great care and attention to every detail by the person performing.
-No amount of "fancy equipment" or having the "best" equipment can replace sound procedures, and methodology.
-Problems can and will occur to one whos not careful.
-I think my choice to double throw the charges IS NOT a sound procedure and leaves a window open for error. Although i have backup system to check it, i shouldnt have to rely on the backup system to catch it. Period!

 

[docbrown]

No, it's not. Weighing loaded ammo to determine how safe it is, is like trying to read primers in revolvers. Unless you know the exact weight of each unloaded case first.

The solution is to have the right equipment for the job. Get a different bar or powder thrower. They are not that expensive. Look into each charged case before seating a bullet. A half charge will be readily apparent with a powder like H110/W296.

As for the versatility and safeness of using H100/W296. While they have narrow parameters, within those parameters they work very well, kinda why they are so popular. The problem is not the powder, but those reloaders that cannot follow simple directions. Very few powders out there that will not cause issues with a half charge or a double charge.

Actually, I have measured cases of different headstamps and have NEVER found a pistol case with more than a 1 grain difference of weight, so if you are checking for a difference of 10 to 12 grains, measuring after the fact will tell you whether you are in the ballpark. It will not tell you the exact amount of powder in the case, but it will show a double charge or half charge if the difference is 10 to 12 grains. With 110/296, this will be noticeable because it is a fairly bulky powder. Now, if we were talking titegroup in a 9mm, I would say pull it because there is just not enough difference to be able to determine even a double charge.

I do agree that a visual check is good practice. I also would recommend AGAINST a double throw on the powder measure. To me this is just adding another point of failure/error to the process. If your powder measure will not throw that amount accurately, it may be time to explore other options. A pressure spike on a 44 Mag is just not worth the risk.

 

[Palladan44]

Actually, I have measured cases of different headstamps and have NEVER found a pistol case with more than a 1 grain difference of weight, so if you are checking for a difference of 10 to 12 grains, measuring after the fact will tell you whether you are in the ballpark. It will not tell you the exact amount of powder in the case, but it will show a double charge or half charge if the difference is 10 to 12 grains. With 110/296, this will be noticeable because it is a fairly bulky powder. Now, if we were talking titegroup in a 9mm, I would say pull it because there is just not enough difference to be able to determine even a double charge.

I do agree that a visual check is good practice. I also would recommend AGAINST a double throw on the powder measure. To me this is just adding another point of failure/error to the process. If your powder measure will not throw that amount accurately, it may be time to explore other options. A pressure spike on a 44 Mag is just not worth the risk.

I agree.

 

[ACORN]

A buddy and I were loading .44 mags for his Abilene on another buddies equipment. We thought we were loading some hot loads with 296. We’d read the warnings about it. On firing they were real pussycats. Turns out the scale were were using had 5 gr increments instead of the 10 gr we were used to. Our sloppiness, no excuse. But these half charged loads caused no issues.

 

[noylj]

The warning was NOT for a squib. It was due to incomplete powder burn, leaving a partially melted glob of powder IN THE BARREL. This has the same disastrous effect as a bullet stuck in the barrel, but not the same cause.
No pressure spike issues, just a powder that is very hard to ignite without enough heat and pressure.

 

[CraigC]

Probably get a squib.

 

[Pivot Dr]

I would be interested in more information. Case fill at which the pressure was higher than it was with an increased charge, what pressure sign, etc.

Not sure of the fill, but it wasn’t full, was backing off of a good known load for a 68 gr Hornady match bullet for this 60 gr Speer PSP bullet. Dropped powder charge 10% or so (just to be safe) and got flanged primer, tough bolt lift and ironed out headstamp. Backed off a couple more grains and all the above with a stuck bolt, had to smack the bolt handle with dead blow hammer to get it open, (thought I was going to have to remove the barrel to get it open) blown primer and pocket as well as gas relief through port in action. Called it a day! We weren’t shooting over my chronograph at the time so don’t know what the velocity may have been, but the 68s typically ran right about 3,850. It’s a 32” 9 twist barrel.

 

[forrest r]

Couldn't even count the #'s of H414 I've burned over the years. Tried reduced loads with cast bullets in a 30-06 decades ago and ended up with hang fires when it got cold out/winter in ne ohio. Needless to say no more reducing loads more than 10%

Back in 79/80? again in ne ohio winter time. A buddy (ya a I know a guy story) and my brother were shooting/testing 357 mag loads. Jerry was using a model 27. Somehow he managed to split the cylinder in 2 pieces (broke in 1/2) using bluedot and 125gr jacketed bullets. They went back to my brothers house and gave me a call. We pulled the rest of the bullets checking the powder charges weights. They were all spot on to the +/- 1/10th gr. Jerry swore up and down he didn't do a double charge & we tended to believe him seeing how a double charge wouldn't fit into a 357mag case. Try putting 28gr of bluedot in a 357mag case and you'll see what I mean.

I understand pre-detonation, never saw it and don't ever want to experience it. I'm not going to say I have a better chance then the next guy to find out 1st hand what pre-detonation does. But I do shoot +/- 2000 cast rifle bullets a year with reduced loads (way more than the 10%/starting loads) doing ladder tests with different 30cal cast bullets. A new mold/new to me mold ='s testing with +/- 10 different rifle powders.
per-detonation ='s ok ya if you say so, powder companies know more than me
squibs ='s absolutely, not good

I'm impressed that know one has brought up flame cutting. Molten junk in the bbl is never a good thing. But the face of the bbl & forcing cone is what takes the beating. Light/low end loads of AA#9, 2400, H110, WW296,MP-300 and you start sandblasting your bbl. Low pressure loads with these types of powders ='s incomplete burn and the end result is bbl faces that look like this.


That's actually normal wear and tear on a used hard/put away S&W 586 bbl after +/- 75,000 rounds. I pretty much do all my testing with low pressure loads using magnum powders for the 357's in dw revolvers. It's easy enough to toss the bbl in a lathe and clean up (new, shinny) face of a bbl before testing looking for flame cutting after a range session.

The worst flame cutting I've ever seen was when I ran a 4 boxes (200 rounds) thru a dw 15-2 using cast bullets with a plain based gas check. The plain based gas checks were made out of soda cans. The bullet was the H&G #51 and the powder was full house loads of power pistol. Power pistol burns hot and the only thing I can think of was the powder burned hot enough along with the cans coating igniting to melt the thing +/- 3/1000th's aluminum can. I should took a picture of the destroyed bbl. It had flame cutting like the bbl pictured above the whole way around the face of the bbl that ate into the forcing cone. I had to cut that bbl 1/4" back and re-cut the forcing cone to get rid of the flame cutting damage. This was back in 2014 which led me to start powder coating bullets. Was trying to find a way to drive soft (8/9bhn) cast bullets hard and still maintain accuracy.

Anyway if you want mid lever, low end high level magnum loads you'd be better off using powders suited for that purpose.