What if WW 296 "half charged" in 44 magnum.

[Palladan44]

To load my recent batch of 44 Magnum using my desired load of 23.5 grains of Win 296, I double threw 11.75 grains, dont need to get into why.........ok, it is the most accurate way for me to measure it using a smaller powder bar, rather than opening it up to the full 23.5, i found great innaccuracies by doing that, up to almost .3 or .4 grains. I know id get a more accurate single throws at 23.5 with the bigger powder bar. But i dont have the bigger powder bar. Double throwing 11.75 hits 23.5 to the tenth of a grain every time.

This leads me to a "what if" question.
What would happen if you fired a 44 mag, 240Gr. XTP- JHP using only a charge of 11.75 grains of WIN 296... 10 grains or more below the published minimum. Do we think it would be just a "dirty dinker" or possibly a pressure spike and possible danger? Thoughts or ideas?

 

[WestKentucky]

Most likely it would be a dink. Possible to be a squib but unlikely. That load would likely end up being somewhat like a 45acp. I would work a load down just out of curiosity and see what it would do. I suspect it would be position sensitive in that case.

 

[DocRock]

WW296 and H110 are the same powder. There are very serious warnings about bad events when H110 is loaded below minimum published charges. I believe therefore that half weight charges of WW296 constitute a significant risk.

Having said that "a guy in the internet said" is not a reasonable bit of safety guidance.

Give Hodgdon a ring and check to be sure. Good.luck.

 

[Steve C]

If you try to shoot a light load of W296 or H110 the powder may not burn causing a squib. The force of the primer firing will push the bullet into the barrel and it will stick in the bore creating an obstruction that could cause damage to your gun if you happen to fire another round before removing it. The other situation the bullet can get stuck in the forcing cone leaving the bullet partially in the cylinder and partially in the barrel that will prevent the cylinder from rotating or being opened.

This is why it is important to stop immediately any time you have a round that has low or no recoil. First is to keep the firearm pointed down range in case there is a hang fire that may discharge in a second or two. Then check to see if there is a bore obstruction. Remove the bullet and unburned powder that will be left.

I have seen both problems at the range when new hand loaders didn't head or understand the warnings regarding light loads and squibs with a volume sensitive powder like H110 or W296.

 

[DocRock]

Post #6 in the attached explains the two potentially bad events resulting from charges below published minima. A squib would be the more desirable of the two. The second is an overpressure event. I would still suggest confirming with Hodgdon.

https://www.rugerforum.net/threads/h110-load-dont-go-below-3-debunked.135990/

 

[Drail]

You really need to pull those suspected partial charges of 296 down. Half charges of 296 are Very Bad and you could be seriously injured. I would not take that chance - it's just not worth it. This is the main reason I do not like or use 296 or H110.

 

[Erief0g]

Is this what you are looking for? If so seems much safer as you ponder the type of failure possible.

 

[edwardware]

I've played with a fair number of very-below-minimum charges in slow powders. . . 50% is going to be filthy and extraordinarily inconsistent.

Count me as Not a Believer in the much-feted below-minimum detonation phenomena. The combustion mechanics doesn't work out, and none of the technical references I've found support it. In any case, a squib and subsequent kaboom is definitely a possibility.

You can avoid both by LOOKING

 

[noylj]

Occasionally, 296/H110 start loads will not burn and you end up with a partially melted blob of powder in your barrel. Your next shot finds a barrel obstruction.
296/H110 needs "high" heat and pressure to ignite properly and burn properly. Since it has never given me improved accuracy over 2400, I don't use it any more.

 

[Bill M.]

I have been looking at the small charge powder measures and thinking. And what I think is that it is a bad idea to purposefully drop 2 charges directly into a case. There is just too much opportunity to mess up. I think in your case you are letting a desire for "precision" override the need to produce accurate and safe loadings. I think dropping both charges into the scale pan and weighing and pour the final charge into the brass case would be a much better procedure.

 

[buck460XVR]

I'd suspect you'd be looking at a squib. The old wives tale of pressure spikes/detonation, is just that.

 

[jmorris]

This leads me to a "what if" question....
Thoughts or ideas?

What if you paid extra special attention when you are performing abnormal processes or avoid them all together?

There are lots of “what if’s”. Grab the wrong powder, throwing doubles, missing squibs then making an attempt at pushing two out. A little attention paid to what one is doing goes a long way. That said, I know some folks that gave up on reloading and only shoot factory ammunition.

 

[Rule3]

Sounds like an accident just waiting to happen. What press and why the issue on not getting a large "powder bar"??

 

[Barbaroja]

If it’s for range ammo, I would accept the slight variation in powder drops vs double dropping on purpose, too much potential for a misstep.

If it’s hunting or match type ammo,weight each charge by hand.

I still haven’t gotten around to getting a powder measure yet as I’m cheap and waiting to find a nice deal on a quality one.
I weight out every charge by hand on a digital scale with a little spoon and trickle up to the appropriate weight. Slower but consistent. I’ve loaded thousands of rounds like this.

 

[Herman B]

Thoughts or ideas?

My thought is one of simplicity - do something right and do it once. If the tool (powder bar) isn't performing, I'd solve the problem (repair/replace) rather than get in the habit of a work-around that tends to be more complicated and prone to error.

 

[Palladan44]

My thought is one of simplicity - do something right and do it once. If the tool (powder bar) isn't performing, I'd solve the problem (repair/replace) rather than get in the habit of a work-around that tends to be more complicated and prone to error.

Having proper tools can only get you so far. Having solid procedures, methodology and know-how is the MOST important. I threw all the charges, and inspected each to verify accuracy. I simply wonder what would happen if one threw a half load of 296 hypothetically.

 

[mdi]

I solved the "below minimum detonation" theory in 2001. I stopped using H110/W296 mainly because it isn't very versatile. I read a lot about the phenonium and both sides of the argument about detonation, but I didn't want to prove either side with my guns. I did load some minimum loads and in my guns (44 Magnums) I got poor accuracy (erratic combustion?) and dirty shooting. I found Unique, Universal, 2400, AA #9 and WC820 much better for my magnum loading...

If I were using a "double 1/2 charge" I would weigh every charge that went into a case. Two charged measured into a pan, weigh, then pour into a case...

 

[10wt308]

Visually check level as is normal procedure.
To use a procedure you know is wrong in hopes you are on your game and “catch” them, well...

 

[jmorris]

Having solid procedures, methodology and know-how is the MOST important.

That is sound logic.

 

[BBarn]

If you want to double-check your work you can weigh your completed rounds. Any 1/2 charge rounds will be obvious, weighing 10+ grains less than the average.

 

[dh1633pm]

Just weigh the completed rounds against a known good. Problem solved.

 

[buck460XVR]

Just weigh the completed rounds against a known good. Problem solved.

No, it's not. Weighing loaded ammo to determine how safe it is, is like trying to read primers in revolvers. Unless you know the exact weight of each unloaded case first.

The solution is to have the right equipment for the job. Get a different bar or powder thrower. They are not that expensive. Look into each charged case before seating a bullet. A half charge will be readily apparent with a powder like H110/W296.

As for the versatility and safeness of using H100/W296. While they have narrow parameters, within those parameters they work very well, kinda why they are so popular. The problem is not the powder, but those reloaders that cannot follow simple directions. Very few powders out there that will not cause issues with a half charge or a double charge.

 

[FROGO207]

Well for now the obvious thing is to manually check for half or overcharges before seating the bullet. I batch load and move my brass from primer up in a loading block on my left to charge to full charge loading block on the right. Then when the loading block is full I take a good light and inspect all the cases for fill. A half full one would be obvious. You can tilt and tap the loading block with small charges and a bad one is even more obvious when comparing. This step has worked for 30+ years as so far no problems. You just have to make safety steps be part of your process for successful reloading. This is assuming you batch load. IMO single loading is not as safe so I dont do it.

 

[mdi]

For normal "good reloading techniques" most will not recommend weighing. But for a larger charge, in either hand gun reloads or rifle loads, it can be fairly easy to spot a double charge or a "no charge". I wouldn't try weighing to find a charge +/- anything less than 8-10 grains. A double charge would be 16-20 grains heavier than the average and a no charge would be 8-10 grains less than average. Too much component variation for any lighter charges...

 

[sparkyv]

H110 is a great powder for 44Mag and 460S&W. Narrow operating window, yes. Great fun and accuracy at the range, double YES!

As for the versatility and safeness of using H100/W296. While they have narrow parameters, within those parameters they work very well, kinda why they are so popular. The problem is not the powder, but those reloaders that cannot follow simple directions. Very few powders out there that will not cause issues with a half charge or a double charge.

Use good technique always and all's well.

Look into each charged case before seating a bullet

Well for now the obvious thing is to manually check for half or overcharges before seating the bullet

it can be fairly easy to spot a double charge or a "no charge".

I fall into this camp, but I'll never know since I play way over in the other end! I likes 'em HOT!

Count me as Not a Believer in the much-feted below-minimum detonation phenomena. The combustion mechanics doesn't work out, and none of the technical references I've found support it.