What is an "unloaded" gun?

[Moparmike]

I concur with Erik. I had this debate with a couple of friends of mine, and we were using similar arguments like those shown here in this thread. A gun is unloaded when I have verified it and it is STILL in my hands. Similarly, I only look down the barrel of my Mauser with the bolt in my hand. If the firing pin is in my hand 24 inches from the nearest bullet (which is in the buttcuff incedentally) then I consider it to be unloaded.

 

[Stoker]

A British military perspective:

A semi-automatic weapon is 'loaded' when there is a magazine in the magazine well. It is 'ready' when the action is cocked and there is a round in the chamber.

When a weapon has been inspected by a range officer and he or she is satisfied that it contains neither magazine nor cartridge it is 'clear'

British civilian target shooting practice with rifles not actually in use on the firing point of a range is to remove the bolt or insert a flag into the breech to show that the weapon is not loaded. I don't know what the deer stalkers do.

We don't have any revolvers.

As for the four rules, I suggest that three of them need to be understood and interpreted sensibly, as threads on this forum are starting to acknowledge.

All guns are not always loaded, but a gun should be treated as such by each individual until he or she has established to his or her satisfaction that it is 'clear'.

The muzzle of a gun has to point in some direction or other. It is only sensible to point it in the safest possible direction.

Finger off the trigger until sights are on target is a good one.

Be sure of your target and what is behind it is a counsel of perfection to anyone not shooting on a properly built, maintained and operated target range, as is clear from a consideration of proper rules for range construction and use and, in particular, of the geometry relating to the design of range danger areas.

 

[chevrofreak]

While talking to my mom a while ago, she honestly believed that an unloaded gun could kill you.





maybe if someone beats you to death with it

 

[MicroBalrog]

An unloaded gun is one where the barrel is detached and held separately from the rest of the gun.

 

[Drjones]

While talking to my mom a while ago, she honestly believed that an unloaded gun could kill you.

Your mom is right.

The vast majority of shooting accidents occur with guns that were falsely assumed to be "unloaded."

 

[foghornl]

What is an 'unloaded gun' ? ? ?

A paperweight, a throwing weapon, a club, etc

 

[Aleko]

What is an unloaded gun???

It's Springfield Armory Loaded model that you just sold.

 

[veloce851]

Geesh
How hard is it to understand, that to state that you ALWAYS treat ALL guns as IF they were loaded.

It didn't sound confusing to me..
What I read from Rule One is that no matter what you treat any and all guns loaded or unloaded in reality as LOADED.. this is to establish a learned behavior.

If in your handling of any and all firearms you are accustom to treating them as "hot" or loaded with a round in the barrel. Then you are going to ingrain that behavior as though it were instinct. If its instictual then you are very unlikely to ever have an "accident"

Even when I'm cleaning my guns as silly as it may sound.. I ensure that the barrel is pointed in a direction that would not harm anyone and that the backdrop is safe.
You may say I'm crazy or stupid for treating an obvious piece of metal pipe as a "hot" weapon. But diligent practice is how I assert my brain. I can guarentee that you will never read a newspaper article about me "accidently" firing an "unloaded" weapon.

As to the quote from Black Hawk Down.. That's typical hollywood.. to highlight a SpecOps "badass" as the type to disregard all common sense and practical gun knowledge. Not to mention the blatant disregard for a CO's orders. I seriously doubt that is a true example of the majority of our finest soldiers.
I challenge anyone to poll 100 Spec Ops men and see if you even get 1% of them that agree with hollywierds example of their profession.
JMHO

 

[Waitone]

My mindset is a gun is unloaded only when it is in a pile of parts on my bench. That is unloaded. Any other time I act like it is loaded.

Dryfire? Never point it at anyone or anythink I intend to destroy.

Look down the barrel? Only when I pick the barrel up off the bench.

Someone hands a gun to me? I always clear it even if it was cleared prior to being handed to me. I teach my daughters to never trust a handgun that is handed to you. Always clear it. I teach my daughters if someone is insulted by your clearing a handgun after they've done the same, then they need to be insulted.

Make no assumptions when it comes to handgun safety.

 

[Cosmoline]

I get the impression a lot of the "purists" are really talking about one thing--semiautomatic pistols. These are responsible for most of the negligent discharges, so it makes a lot of sense to actually remove the barrel before looking down it.

For revolvers, bolt action rifles, and the like, it's a simple matter to remove the bolt and finger check the chamber, or to open the cylinder and make sure you've got all the chambers empty. It ain't so easy to remove the barrel with these firearms, nor is it necessary before looking down the barrel.

Or are you guys actually suggesting that in order to examine the crown on my 1891 Argie Mauser, I have to remove the barrel??! Outrageous. You need special equipment to do it, and with an old rifle you can end up destroying the barrel.

 

[atk]

It's been a bit since I read it, but I first saw the rule written down in Jeff Cooper's "Principles Of Personal Defense". The explaination I remember is that rewording it from "Every gun is always loaded" to "Treat every gun as though it were loaded" makes the statement much less concrete. It makes it as though it's okay to ignore the rule, because it's as though it's loaded, rather than just loaded.

By stating it in this way, the idea is that the rule retains its importance and is less likely to be violated.

There are some additional advantages I can think of, as well (Cooper may have mentioned them, I don't remember):

If someone points a gun at me (or another innocent person), I have the choice of assuming it's loaded, or unloaded. This choice determines my next action. If I assume it's loaded, I can respond as though it's loaded, as appropriate to the situation. If I was wrong, and it was unloaded, I have still survived the situation. If I assume it's unloaded, and respond as though it's unloaded, but I'm wrong... Well, that's one time I really don't want to be wrong. In the interests of survival, it's in my best interest to assume it's loaded.

If I'm holding a gun, I can assume it's loaded or it's unloaded. If I assume it's loaded, I'm definitely not going to go pointing it at my dog and pull the trigger. If I was wrong, then the dog is safe, either way. On the other hand, if I assume it's unloaded, then it would be "safe" to point and pull the trigger. If I was wrong this time, then there are a few messes to clean up. Again, in the interests of survival (both from the angry dog, the angry housemate(s) and the angry law), assuming it's loaded is in my best interest.

I'm sure you all knew that, but I think that spelling it all out makes it easier to understand why every gun is always loaded.

Now, we're all thinking, rational human beings (or, at least I hope we are ). We all realize that there must be some exceptions to this rule. And there are, but they're more of footnotes than bold, 60 point text. The exceptions are:

1. the firearm is rendered unable to fire. This may be because the action is open (signalled with a flag or a pencil, or whatever), or because the firearm is disassembled and the chamber is/are visible. The firearm remains safe until its condition changes, or its condition leaves the attention of the handler.

2. the firearm was just checked visually, and confirmed by sticking a finger in each chamber, and any ammunition that was loaded was carefully confirmed to be inert (i.e. snap caps). Again, the firearm remains safe until its condition changes, or its condition leaves the attention of the handler(this includes getting distracted by the television but not dropping the gun)

Of course, everyone already knows all that *grin*

 

[blue86buick]

I figured this to be in reference to laws that say a gun must be unloaded when transporting ('plane, car, non-ccw person, etc).

My definition? Same as others...one that I have confirmed to be unloaded, until it is out of my control.

That is the reason I keep my pistols in my safe with the magazine out, action locked open, and no rounds chambered. I check them again when I pick them up.

I need to get more dilligent about checking my rifles though.

 

[chevrofreak]

Your mom is right.

The vast majority of shooting accidents occur with guns that were falsely assumed to be "unloaded."

thats not what she meant

 

[Hkmp5sd]

If someone points a gun at me (or another innocent person), I have the choice of assuming it's loaded, or unloaded. This choice determines my next action. If I assume it's loaded

That is not really a wise way to handle having a gun pointed at you. If someone points a gun at you, it is loaded, regardless of whether there are any bullets in the gun or even if the gun turns out to be an airsoft replica. Deadly force is authorized if you, or a reasonable person placed in your situation, believes the guy is going to harm you. Someone pointing what appears to be a real handgun at you meets that criteria.

 

[greyhound]

An unloded gun is what the leftists here in Md want us to be able to have, as the next step towards confiscation. Its for the children, you know.

 

[atk]

Hkmp5sd,

Perhaps I was unclear, but I was trying to provide rationalle (sp?) for the "a gun is always loaded". I can treat the firearm as loaded or as unloaded. Based on my reasoning above, it's in my best interests to treat every firearm as loaded.

Sorry for the lack of clarity.

 

[Thumper]

If all guns are always loaded, how do you fieldstrip a glock????

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Sorry for the lack of clarity.

No sweat. My posts frequently lack clarity, intelligence, reality and proper grammar.

 

[Graystar]

I have a different way of looking at it. I always see guns as either safe to handle or ready to fire. Guns that have their actions open are safe to handle. Action closed = ready to fire. That's what I teach people. Cartridges have absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[Drjones]

I like that definition, Graystar.

Thanks to HkMp5, I've got it down now:

A gun may be considered unloaded, safe, whatever, once you have verified for yourself that it is indeed devoid of cartriges. Of course you still handle it as if it were loaded; don't point it at anyone, etc.

The second it leaves your hands, even if it is still in your full view, it becomes loaded again.

 

[Orthonym]

How's This?

A gun is, essentially, a tube open at one end and more or less closed at the other.

If it's open at both ends (cylinder swung out and empty on a revo., or slide back & daylight showing though barrel and mag well on autopistol) then it's not a gun until closed up again, just a piece of pipe.

When actually conditioning oneself in safe behavior I think it's propaedeutic to think as If Rule 1 were literally true.